Immortality on hold (warning, this will tick you off)

Dave Butz Baby! · 08-09-2004, 03:28 PM

One thing I have read repeatedly is that the HoF voters often look for "that defining moment" (ie, highlight reel) on the field during the big game. Swan and Stallworth definitely had theirs.. how many times have you seen Swan's over the shoulder catch as he's going down in against the Cowrhoids in the 1979 SB? Plenty. Monk didn't really have any of those. For that matter, neither did Steve Largent that I can remember. All I remember about him was (like Monk), he caught everything that came his way. Those two guys had very similar careers, with one major difference. Monk has rings. But Largent's in. As SportsCurmudgeon pointed out, Monk was not exactly a press friendly person and they're the ones doing the voting.

I do think the voters' need of wanting the one defining "picture perfect play" along with a career long body of consistent work is a crime. Pure unadulterated bullshit, actually. Unfortunately, I also think that if Monk had retired when his Skins career was over, he may have gotten in already. With Jerry Rice (hands down, best receiver ever) coming through at the end of Monks career and just annihilating all the records like he has, it's probably not hard to put on the blinders and compare everyone from here on out to Jerry. That is damn unfair, just like all shooting guards will always be compared to Jordan. You could be incredible, but compared to those transcendental types of players, you're not going to look like the best.

As far as DG getting in, he'll be a first ballot inductee. Hell, even Dr Z said he's a lock. I've even seem him referred to as the second greatest corner (don't dare say who was the best) to ever play the game by a HoF voter.

I'm pretty sure he has a few highlight reel performances of Mr. Green that'll get played over and over again on ESPN when he gets in!

SmootSmack · 08-09-2004, 03:57 PM

And Monk, unfortunately was never a big factor in any of the Super Bowls:

XVII: Didn't play
XVIII: Let's not even talk about this game
XXII: Overshadowed by Williams, Clark, Sanders, and Smith
XXVI: Had the first touchdown in the game overruled by instant replay

MTK · 08-09-2004, 04:05 PM

I don't agree that he didn't have an impact in SB XXVI, that TD drive where his catch was overuled he totally dominated on that drive and he had 7-113 for the game.

Monk just wasn't a flashy or sexy enough player. He did all the dirty work in Gibbs' system. He made the tough underneath catches to move the chains and he was a great blocking WR. While he didn't catch a ton of TD passes his presence in the lineup opened things up for Clark and Sanders. He will get in eventually, but it's a shame he's been shut out so far. Especially with the weak arguments (excuses) that HOF voters are giving.

Cowboyhater · 08-09-2004, 04:06 PM

When I think of Darrell Green three higlights come to mind.

1. Chasing down Toney Dorsett
2. The hurdle on the punt return against Chicago
3. Breaking up the pass in the playoffs against Minnesota

Also, let's not forget Green's character. He is MAN among men

SmootSmack · 08-09-2004, 04:30 PM

Matty, you're right I should have worded my post differently. Clearly he was a factor. As you point out, he opened things up for Clark and Sanders. Unfortunately though I don't remember him having that defining play(s), a Mike Jones tackle, a John Taylor TD, etc.

He's sort of like J.R. Redmond (did I just compare Monk to Redmond???) But you know, a couple of years ago Brady was marching the Pats down the field, throwing often to Redmond. Vinatieri gets the credit for the game winning field goal, Brady the credit for marching the team down the field.

Those are great D. Green highlights:

I'll add the interception return for a TD in the 51-7 rout of the Rams, and the INT-TD against the Cowboys (I think it bounced off someone's foot maybe)

Dave Butz Baby! · 08-09-2004, 05:38 PM

To add fuel to the fire, how about this comment from Peter King about Tim Brown? Says Brown isn't Hall-Worthy either.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...mqb/index.html

Tim Brown was three people in front of me at the Hertz No. 1 Gold counter at the Oakland airport. I guess he'd just flown in from somewhere, Dallas probably. All I could think of when I saw him was: dead man walking.

A few days after he got whacked, I saw Woody Paige -- the ESPN Around the Horn guy, Denver columnist and fellow Hall of Fame voter -- talking about Brown on TV. He said he didn't think there was any way Brown would make the Hall of Fame. I thought, wow. A guy catches 1,070 balls, the second-most in NFL history, and the ink's not even dry on the newspaper that reported his whacking and already he's not a Hall of Famer. I'm not sure if he is or not. I just don't get how he gets consigned to Art Monk-ville without his day in court.

Monk-ville? Where does that never-played-a-down-in-his-life fat-a$$ get off? I think it's time for a letter writing campaign to change to way people get into the hall. I think the legends in the Hall of fame should be doing the final voting. They know who belongs in their with them... not the sad sacks who won't vote for a guy because he refused to talk to him.

SmootSmack · 08-09-2004, 05:58 PM

So is he saying Tim Brown doesn't belong, or is Woody Paige saying that?

Either way, you're right it is a shame that the numbers alone aren't enough. That there has to be this media-friendliness as well. Baseball you don't have that problem. That's why guys like Eddie Murray and Steve Carlton make it no problem. Because their numbers say they belongs even though they were quiet in front of the camera

Beemnseven · 08-09-2004, 06:11 PM

How about those that are in the Hall that maybe don't belong?

I'll give you one:

Howie Long. I'm sorry, but he just doesn't cut it. I think that's a clear case of somebody who's currently popular, is in a bunch of TV commercials, and has a knack for talking into the camera on a pregame show that a lot of people watch -- who gets in the HoF basically because he's the 'flavor-of-the-month'.

Redskins8588 · 08-09-2004, 06:23 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/alltime/leaders

Accorcding to the article they claim that Aikman and Young are shoe-ins for the HOF, but go and look at the all time leader page and see where they fall on all of the lists. I am not saying that they dont belong or they were not any good. But look at the reciever all time list and see how art monk fairs against the all time leaders.

sportscurmudgeon · 08-09-2004, 11:07 PM

smootsmack:

Thanks for channeling me. I don't know about you, but I thought it was fantastic; was it good for you too...

If Darrell Green does not make the HoF, then they ought to close the doors and turn off the power to the building. I think he will be a first time eligible inductee but even if he misses that first time, he will go in soon after that.

The writers who vote can be a bit priggish in their votes, but Green did nothing in his entire career to turn any of them against him. He's as close to a mortal lock for entry as there is.

SmootSmack · 08-09-2004, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

smootsmack:

Thanks for channeling me. I don't know about you, but I thought it was fantastic; was it good for you too...

Ummm......

SkinsRock · 08-10-2004, 02:58 PM

Are non-flashy linemen inducted into the HOF? Of course. Monk should be in.

Darrell Green practically invented the super-fast shut-down corner. He should be a first ballot inductee. If he had switched teams or retired earlier, I could see him being overlooked for a couple years, but the longetivity, especially all with one team, should get him in his first year of eligibility.

08-09-2004, 03:28 PM	#16
Dave Butz Baby! Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Reston, VA Age: 54 Posts: 450	One thing I have read repeatedly is that the HoF voters often look for "that defining moment" (ie, highlight reel) on the field during the big game. Swan and Stallworth definitely had theirs.. how many times have you seen Swan's over the shoulder catch as he's going down in against the Cowrhoids in the 1979 SB? Plenty. Monk didn't really have any of those. For that matter, neither did Steve Largent that I can remember. All I remember about him was (like Monk), he caught everything that came his way. Those two guys had very similar careers, with one major difference. Monk has rings. But Largent's in. As SportsCurmudgeon pointed out, Monk was not exactly a press friendly person and they're the ones doing the voting. I do think the voters' need of wanting the one defining "picture perfect play" along with a career long body of consistent work is a crime. Pure unadulterated bullshit, actually. Unfortunately, I also think that if Monk had retired when his Skins career was over, he may have gotten in already. With Jerry Rice (hands down, best receiver ever) coming through at the end of Monks career and just annihilating all the records like he has, it's probably not hard to put on the blinders and compare everyone from here on out to Jerry. That is damn unfair, just like all shooting guards will always be compared to Jordan. You could be incredible, but compared to those transcendental types of players, you're not going to look like the best. As far as DG getting in, he'll be a first ballot inductee. Hell, even Dr Z said he's a lock. I've even seem him referred to as the second greatest corner (don't dare say who was the best) to ever play the game by a HoF voter. I'm pretty sure he has a few highlight reel performances of Mr. Green that'll get played over and over again on ESPN when he gets in! __________________ Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

08-09-2004, 03:57 PM	#17
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	And Monk, unfortunately was never a big factor in any of the Super Bowls: XVII: Didn't play XVIII: Let's not even talk about this game XXII: Overshadowed by Williams, Clark, Sanders, and Smith XXVI: Had the first touchdown in the game overruled by instant replay __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

08-09-2004, 04:05 PM	#18
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NY Age: 52 Posts: 99,569	I don't agree that he didn't have an impact in SB XXVI, that TD drive where his catch was overuled he totally dominated on that drive and he had 7-113 for the game. Monk just wasn't a flashy or sexy enough player. He did all the dirty work in Gibbs' system. He made the tough underneath catches to move the chains and he was a great blocking WR. While he didn't catch a ton of TD passes his presence in the lineup opened things up for Clark and Sanders. He will get in eventually, but it's a shame he's been shut out so far. Especially with the weak arguments (excuses) that HOF voters are giving. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

08-09-2004, 04:06 PM	#19
Cowboyhater Camp Scrub Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore Age: 50 Posts: 16	When I think of Darrell Green three higlights come to mind. 1. Chasing down Toney Dorsett 2. The hurdle on the punt return against Chicago 3. Breaking up the pass in the playoffs against Minnesota Also, let's not forget Green's character. He is MAN among men __________________ Touchdown Washington Redskins!

08-09-2004, 04:30 PM	#20
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	Matty, you're right I should have worded my post differently. Clearly he was a factor. As you point out, he opened things up for Clark and Sanders. Unfortunately though I don't remember him having that defining play(s), a Mike Jones tackle, a John Taylor TD, etc. He's sort of like J.R. Redmond (did I just compare Monk to Redmond???) But you know, a couple of years ago Brady was marching the Pats down the field, throwing often to Redmond. Vinatieri gets the credit for the game winning field goal, Brady the credit for marching the team down the field. Those are great D. Green highlights: I'll add the interception return for a TD in the 51-7 rout of the Rams, and the INT-TD against the Cowboys (I think it bounced off someone's foot maybe) __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

08-09-2004, 05:38 PM	#21
Dave Butz Baby! Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Reston, VA Age: 54 Posts: 450	To add fuel to the fire, how about this comment from Peter King about Tim Brown? Says Brown isn't Hall-Worthy either. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...mqb/index.html Tim Brown was three people in front of me at the Hertz No. 1 Gold counter at the Oakland airport. I guess he'd just flown in from somewhere, Dallas probably. All I could think of when I saw him was: dead man walking. A few days after he got whacked, I saw Woody Paige -- the ESPN Around the Horn guy, Denver columnist and fellow Hall of Fame voter -- talking about Brown on TV. He said he didn't think there was any way Brown would make the Hall of Fame. I thought, wow. A guy catches 1,070 balls, the second-most in NFL history, and the ink's not even dry on the newspaper that reported his whacking and already he's not a Hall of Famer. I'm not sure if he is or not. I just don't get how he gets consigned to Art Monk-ville without his day in court. Monk-ville? Where does that never-played-a-down-in-his-life fat-a$$ get off? I think it's time for a letter writing campaign to change to way people get into the hall. I think the legends in the Hall of fame should be doing the final voting. They know who belongs in their with them... not the sad sacks who won't vote for a guy because he refused to talk to him. __________________ Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

08-09-2004, 05:58 PM	#22
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	So is he saying Tim Brown doesn't belong, or is Woody Paige saying that? Either way, you're right it is a shame that the numbers alone aren't enough. That there has to be this media-friendliness as well. Baseball you don't have that problem. That's why guys like Eddie Murray and Steve Carlton make it no problem. Because their numbers say they belongs even though they were quiet in front of the camera __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

08-09-2004, 06:11 PM	#23
Beemnseven Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 50 Posts: 5,311	How about those that are in the Hall that maybe don't belong? I'll give you one: Howie Long. I'm sorry, but he just doesn't cut it. I think that's a clear case of somebody who's currently popular, is in a bunch of TV commercials, and has a knack for talking into the camera on a pregame show that a lot of people watch -- who gets in the HoF basically because he's the 'flavor-of-the-month'.

08-09-2004, 06:23 PM	#24
Redskins8588 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ridgway, PA Age: 46 Posts: 2,519	http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/alltime/leaders Accorcding to the article they claim that Aikman and Young are shoe-ins for the HOF, but go and look at the all time leader page and see where they fall on all of the lists. I am not saying that they dont belong or they were not any good. But look at the reciever all time list and see how art monk fairs against the all time leaders. __________________ "I am the best at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice" - Sean Taylor

08-09-2004, 11:07 PM	#25
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	smootsmack: Thanks for channeling me. I don't know about you, but I thought it was fantastic; was it good for you too... If Darrell Green does not make the HoF, then they ought to close the doors and turn off the power to the building. I think he will be a first time eligible inductee but even if he misses that first time, he will go in soon after that. The writers who vote can be a bit priggish in their votes, but Green did nothing in his entire career to turn any of them against him. He's as close to a mortal lock for entry as there is.

08-10-2004, 02:58 PM	#27
SkinsRock Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Crofton, MD Age: 55 Posts: 907	Are non-flashy linemen inducted into the HOF? Of course. Monk should be in. Darrell Green practically invented the super-fast shut-down corner. He should be a first ballot inductee. If he had switched teams or retired earlier, I could see him being overlooked for a couple years, but the longetivity, especially all with one team, should get him in his first year of eligibility.

Immortality on hold (warning, this will tick you off)

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