Should Hillary Hang It Up?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think the loss in West Virginia still shows we have a long way to go in this country, racially

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

You bring up some good points, 70. It was Toni Morrison that declared Bill the first black Prez., but she has recently backed away from those statements, saying she didn't mean it quite "that way". Okay, whatever.

As far as Black America and the Clintons are concerned, I think Black America has learned the hard way what kind of politicians the Clintons really are. But as loyal as they were in supporting him/them, I think to a great extent, they'll most certainly dishonor them at the polls in Fall, provided that Hillary somehow get's the nomination. She can stick a fork in the black vote, because it's cooked.

I wouldn't read too much into the national polls right now. By any measurement, it's still early. We all know how fickled those national polls can be anyway. We haven't had a single debate between the respective, presumptive nominees yet, so those polls are pretty meaningless if you ask me.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

Completely agreed. Those accusations are asinine.

IF someone votes for or against Obama simply because he's black, that's not racist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against Clinton simply because she's a woman, that's not sexist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against McCain simply because he's an older man, that's not *create new PC term*-ist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Buster

Completely agreed. Those accusations are asinine.

IF someone votes for or against Obama simply because he's black, that's not racist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against Clinton simply because she's a woman, that's not sexist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against McCain simply because he's an older man, that's not *create new PC term*-ist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

OMG, you can't possibly be serious. Ignorant and stupid? I think you might want to actually check the definition of what racism is. Unless I am not aware of my own ignorants I do believe not voting for someone because they are black rather than on the merits of their character and position IS racist (it falls under "discrimination or prejudice based on race" definition).

p.s. Same principle applies in sexism and ageism which is NOT a new PC term.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

And come on, Toni Morrison, while a tremendous author, is neither an intellectual nor a political leader in black America. Clinton remained in office because he enjoyed broad political support in various demographic groups. If "black America" wants to support a different candidate now it's not your place to patronizingly tell "them" that they essentially are reaping what they sowed. It's crazy that you blame "black America" for the success of one of the most popular presidents in modern history, whom you happen to disagree with.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

[saden1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

It's wrong on all levels. If you don't believe in someone's message and you're just voting without considering the issues you're racist.

A lot has recently been made that the African American community is voting for Obama becasue he is black. Truth if Obama was a republican he would get the same amount of votes you'd expect Clarence Thomas or Alan Keys to get from African Americans. The reason he's winning the black vote is largely due to his appeal and the ineptness of the Clintons not because he's black. There's also the hope factor.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

It's no secret that some people are voting for Obama largely because of his race. It's also no secret that a small minority of Americans are voting against Obama because of his race. I think, however, there is a subtle, yet important distinction between voting for someone because of his/her race and voting against someone because of his/her race.

Mindful of our not so distant past, many Americans find it thrilling to see an African-American on the cusp of becoming our nation's leader. It signals a seismic shift in politics and race relations. It also gives hope to many minorities that they can aspire to become important figures in our society. So, in a sense, I can understand why some people vote for Obama, in part or whole, because he is African-American. It may be dumb to do so, but it is understandable.

On the other hand, to vote against someone because they are African-American is simply racist. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point. So, whereas the former group votes out of hope, the latter group votes out of hate. That's a sweeping generalization and it's not so simple, but I think it captures the gist of how I see this issue.

Personally, I would NEVER consciously vote for or against anyone because of his/her race. Superficial distinctions like race should not be used as a factor in determining whether someone should ascend to the highest position of power in the world.

Finally, as Saden noted, I do not think Obama's race is what is propelling his candidacy. Jesse Jackson didn't go too far in his bid for the presidency and neither did Alan Keyes. Obama has that "it" factor that Reagan, Kennedy and FDR did.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

That's not a point people want to speak about though. It's ok / pc to be racist for blacks, just not against them.
Racism is racism, and all of it should cease.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

And come on, Toni Morrison, while a tremendous author, is neither an intellectual nor a political leader in black America. Clinton remained in office because he enjoyed broad political support in various demographic groups. If "black America" wants to support a different candidate now it's not your place to patronizingly tell "them" that they essentially are reaping what they sowed. It's crazy that you blame "black America" for the success of one of the most popular presidents in modern history, whom you happen to disagree with.

I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.

God help us with low information voters. West Virginia is really a special place and not the good kind of special (I know, sounds terrible and it feels just as terrible to say that):

West Virginia is hostile territory for Mr Obama because it has few of the African-Americans and affluent, college-educated whites who provide his strongest support. The state has the lowest college graduation rate in the US, the second lowest median household income, and one of the highest proportions of white residents, at 96 per cent.

The ignorance is mind boggling:


And of course the you have the women vote in play too:

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.

Couple of things Chip: one, I lived in West Virginia for five years and I have never experienced racism like that in my life. That doesn't mean everyone there is racist, or even most people, but it exists far more than you are allowing, as both polls and anecdotal evidence suggest. You can continue to blame "liberals" for manufacturing this issue or you can deal with a particularly ugly side of America which is being exposed by this election. I mean, maybe people in West Virginia are just more pragmatic than the rest of the country, or maybe not.

Second, I'm not sure you have paid attention to Obama's response to this issue. He has done exactly what you suggest, refusing to even engage the notion that race might play a factor in his electability, in spite of overwhelming evidence that it is and will continue to. If there is a criticism to be made of Obama it is that his unity message glosses over some important issues, but I don't know how anyone can even hint that him or his campaign are being divisive.

Clinton retired with one of the highest approval ratings in modern presidential history. This broad support is why he wasn't removed from office. If there is an all powerful group of liberal boogeyman special interest groups who control Washington I would like to know where they were during the buildup to the Iraq war or during the global warming debate or the Alito confirmation hearings. Oh that's right, they were being completely ignored.

[dmek25]

agreed. somehow, the Clinton's thought it was OK to declare Bill " the first black president". its funny, once. every primary, all the news networks tell us that so and so is doing well with certain ethnic groups. why? all i need is who won, and who lost. but then again, the United States has never had 2 candidates that weren't white men.

[12thMan]

What I find interesting is how the media has decided to slice and dice the electorate into so many categories this year. It's totally over analysis, in my opinion.

The Dems have never done well with the so called Reagan Democrats, or the blue collar "white voter", as Hillary put it.

This isn't specific to Barack Obama, but it has certainly raised some eyebrows due to race and gender playing such an important role in this election.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

The Dems have never done well with the so called Reagan Democrats, or the blue collar "white voter", as Hillary put it.

If you limit your view to the past 30 years perhaps, and take out union voters. And remove the quotations around "white" because you can't separate race from current party alignments, particularly in the South. It is impossible to separate the erosion of the 'Solid South' from issues of race and the Civil Rights Revolution. The Reagan Democrats were the end of a long process that went back to the New Deal, Eisenhower's national popularity, Johnson and Civil Rights, Barry Goldwater, Nixon's Southern Strategy, Democratic rules replacing seniority in committee assignments, etc.