The Ramsey Dilemma

[MTK]

Who cares about the money or the cap right now? All that matters is the '04 season.

We'll cross those bridges when we come to them.

[la73hof]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

There's no dilemma to me. Ramsey needs to ride the pine a while until he picks up the offense. Once he has the basics down he'll be ready for some playing time. Ramsey should push for the starting job next year. Until then it's Brunell's team.

By the way who left the barn door open and let this cowgirls fan in? Kinda funny how he mentions Steven Jackson being a good fit here, couldn't the same be said for Dallas?? Instead they traded down for Julius Jones. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Also, who got slapped in the face? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Dallas have a 40 year old starter and 2 very green backups at QB?? If anyone needed to pursue an experienced QB it was definitely Dallas. Some very nice non-moves there!

Maurice Carthon, would was jumping on a table (as its been told) back in '95 to draft Curtis Martin

BP sees Jones in the same light as CM. BP told Jones that if he was available in the 2nd and the Cowboys hadnt drafted a RB at that point, he was going to pick Jones.

BP is a man of his word

BP has mentioned perhaps bringing a vet back up behind VT (Lucas?) but is leaning toward keeping Henson and Romo

BP @ a recent press concerence said he isnt going to being in a vet just for the sake of bringing in a vet.--referencing the failed Mirer experiment after VT went down in the '99 season opener with a blown out achilles

Even if we do, the vet will only have a few weeks to get acclimated to the system. Henson has been here since March. While he made a rookie mistake by eyeballing his intended target @ Houston @ the goal line and getting picked off, he has been a revelation. A great arm, accuracy, pocket awareness, instincts and quick release

Id rather go through growing pains with a guy with seemingly unlimited upside, than go through the same with a back up

'05 will be the year of the legitimate push--but not to say we'll miss the playoffs this year--I like our chances

[offiss]

Originally Posted by la73hof

Gentlemen, Ramsey reminds me a whole lot of Chad Hutchinson coming off his '02 season..

Hutchinson was thrown to the wolves with perhaps the worst OL in Cowboys history giving up 54 sacks..I mean it was awful..when Hutch wasnt sacked he was getting plastered.

I believe that season ruined Hutch..he was shellshocked..Hutch developed a case of happy feet after that. Thje only thing we learned about Hutch is he was one tough SOB

Hutch got beat out by QuINTcy last year and was released this offseason after only a so-so showing in Europe

2 more simliarities between the '02 Cowboys and '03 Skins were the OL coach and the OC

In Helton, you seemed to have a guy whose system who didnt didnt fit the personnel he had. Did the skins even pull their guard the last 2 years? Thomas has excellent mobility but wasnt used in this capacity. Helton, from what I read really alienated his OL

We had the same thing in Frank Verducci..a guy who tried to incorporate zone blocking with the piledriving man to man blockers we had on the team..injuries also ravaged our team that year...I believe we had 11 different OL combinations that year

Now Coslet and Spurrier were just flat out bad play callers...Spurrier just didnt seem to appreciate the run game @ all...losing Davis reaally hurt

I was also critical of you guys giving up Bailey and a 2nd round pick for Portis..(and for that Matter a 3rd and a ridiculous contract for Brunnel)

Steven Jackson would have been a super fit for Gibbs and his system...Jackson slipped all the way to 26 to the Rams. With a 2nd and 3rd rounder, you guys would have had the ammo to move up 12 or 13 spots to go and nab him Now, and this is no knock on Portis, but a knock to Snyder and Cerrato, Jackson would have come a HECK of a lot cheaper too.

The real slap in the face was when Kerry Collins was released..you guys could have had him without giving up a draft pick and for 1/2 the price of Brunnel

Again, just my humble opinion

So you have a problem with Hutchinson's happy feet, which by the way Ramsey doesn't have, and you want Collin's? The king of happy feet. Anyone who would put Ramsey in the same catagory as Hutchinson, hasen't watched a whole lot of football, the fact is, Hutchinson is a lowsy football player, And the fact is Ramsey is learning a whole new system, and not only does he have to learn a new system, the coach is running a very simple version of that system, which is allowing defenses to read and react better, this wont happen in the regular season, to judge Ramsey right now as a failure, is to not have a clue about Joe Gibb's, and how he run's his pre-season, under Gibb's the skin's are one of the worst pre-season team's in the league, 0-5 and a SB victory, and he's still fooling people, infact William's couldn't keep his mouth shut about it, he was trying to defend why we were beat so bad, Gibb's loves to play the underdog and he's setting that up, and then everyone will realize pre-season doesn't mean jack in the win lose catagory, By the way how did the 13 year veteran Brunnell look in that offense the other night? Exept for 1 long TD pass to McCant's this pre-season, he hasen't looked much better than Ramsey.

As for Portis, are we to believe that stephen Jackson is on the same level as Portis, he ran against a lot of scrub's the other night, I didn't see a whole lot to make me think this kid will be an elite back? There is a reason he fell so far, with team's like the eagles and cowboy's desperate for a running back passed on him, we did give up to much for portis, the second round pick was to much, but everyone look's at this deal as Champ being a hall of fame CB, and he's not that kind of talent, he was beat many a time playing for us, case and point, everyone in denver keep's talking about using Champ on offense, and kick return's, good luck, he was awful any time we used him on special's when he handled the ball, the guy couldn't catch, I think Champ is a product of more hype than substance, He's no Daryl Green, or Deion, or Haines, or any of the other elite CB's to have played the game, Spring's so long as he stay's healthy, will replace him no problem,

[la73hof]

Originally Posted by offiss

So you have a problem with Hutchinson's happy feet, which by the way Ramsey doesn't have, and you want Collin's? The king of happy feet. Anyone who would put Ramsey in the same catagory as Hutchinson, hasen't watched a whole lot of football, the fact is, Hutchinson is a lowsy football player, And the fact is Ramsey is learning a whole new system, and not only does he have to learn a new system, the coach is running a very simple version of that system, which is allowing defenses to read and react better, this wont happen in the regular season, to judge Ramsey right now as a failure, is to not have a clue about Joe Gibb's, and how he run's his pre-season, under Gibb's the skin's are one of the worst pre-season team's in the league, 0-5 and a SB victory, and he's still fooling people, infact William's couldn't keep his mouth shut about it, he was trying to defend why we were beat so bad, Gibb's loves to play the underdog and he's setting that up, and then everyone will realize pre-season doesn't mean jack in the win lose catagory, By the way how did the 13 year veteran Brunnell look in that offense the other night? Exept for 1 long TD pass to McCant's this pre-season, he hasen't looked much better than Ramsey.

As for Portis, are we to believe that stephen Jackson is on the same level as Portis, he ran against a lot of scrub's the other night, I didn't see a whole lot to make me think this kid will be an elite back? There is a reason he fell so far, with team's like the eagles and cowboy's desperate for a running back passed on him, we did give up to much for portis, the second round pick was to much, but everyone look's at this deal as Champ being a hall of fame CB, and he's not that kind of talent, he was beat many a time playing for us, case and point, everyone in denver keep's talking about using Champ on offense, and kick return's, good luck, he was awful any time we used him on special's when he handled the ball, the guy couldn't catch, I think Champ is a product of more hype than substance, He's no Daryl Green, or Deion, or Haines, or any of the other elite CB's to have played the game, Spring's so long as he stay's healthy, will replace him no problem,

I just have a difference in Philosophy here..and see this from my angle
..from a cap number/draft selection given up philosophy

Is Portis, along with his 8 year, 50 million contract along with 10 or so mill signing bonus along with giving up Bailey and a 2 a better deal than keeping your 2nd, (by not trading CB) your 3rd ( but being patient for a vet QB to become available and then using your 2nd and 3rd to move up and draft Jackson, who comes with a cap number a lot less than Portis, especially after year 3 of the contract and beyond?

Now, I understand Bailey would have gotten Portis money and them some, but what would you rather have --Bailey/Jackson/Collins or Portis/Springs/Brunnel?

How about a Taylor and Jackson for your efforts in the 1st?

The consider the system Gibbs has up there..what kind of backs have thrived?
Gibbs has never had a smaller, shiftier back..always a plowhorse when things were at their peak ala Riggins and Gerald Riggs

We the Eagles werent as desparate for Jackson..they already had Wesbrook and @ the time a healthy Buckhalter..they got the guy they coveted..Andrews by giving swapping 1st's and giving up up a 2nd to SF to secure him

Wile Jackson was a good prospect, he wasnt an elite prospect...our scouting dept had Jackson, Kevin Jones and Julius Jones rated as nearly the same (with K Jones being the #1 back)..so picking up a #1 next year made the decision easy

I just dont see that much of a difference between Collins and Brunnel

Im not saying Brunnel isnt a better QB because he is..his career stats prove it ..But to the tune of is he 6 years, 43 mil with a healthy SB and a 3nd round draft pick better?

No way

Collins behind an effective offensive line is a good QB..as witness by his Super Bowl season 4 years ago and just 2 years ago when the Giants offense was extremely effective and got them to the playoffs before the Giants D collapased with a 38-14 lead

I just dont like the way My Snyder is mortgages the future...just like JJ used too up until 4 years ago

the LB spot..you guys have 3 very good LB's but have a very average DL. The LB's could have a tough time because of the play of the DL if opposing OL are getting out to your LB's

And if the DL isnt getting to the QB, and LB's are being blitzed, the secondary is gonna receive plenty of attention

Bailey wasnt as good as all the hype he received, but he was still a very good player.

Smoot isnt Bailey...and either is Springs althoug I agree with your take on Springs..if healthy and he remains healthy he's gonna make plays

And as good as Taylor is gonna be, he cant cover everyone

[MTK]

Originally Posted by la73hof

The consider the system Gibbs has up there..what kind of backs have thrived?
Gibbs has never had a smaller, shiftier back..always a plowhorse when things were at their peak ala Riggins and Gerald Riggs

Try the likes of Joe Washington, Ricky Ervins, Kelvin Bryant and even Byner who wasn't exactly a true power back.

Gibbs knows RB's, he didn't win 3 SB's with luck, he knows how to plug guys into his system. If he wanted a plowhorse, don't you think he would have went out and got one?? Today's game is all about speed, much more so than in his first go-round. You've been sippin the ignorant media kool-aid that would like you to believe that Gibbs system needs a power back. That's a huge misconception. The backs I named above were all very successful in this offense and Portis will be no exception.

[la73hof]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Try the likes of Joe Washington, Ricky Ervins, Kelvin Bryant and even Byner who wasn't exactly a true power back.

Gibbs knows RB's, he didn't win 3 SB's with luck, he knows how to plug guys into his system. If he wanted a plowhorse, don't you think he would have went out and got one?? Today's game is all about speed, much more so than in his first go-round. You've been sippin the ignorant media kool-aid that would like you to believe that Gibbs system needs a power back. That's a huge misconception. The backs I named above were all very successful in this offense and Portis will be no exception.

Im just going off the most successful backs of the Gibbs era

I'll be very interested to see how Portis performs..you have your take on CP and I have mine

This aint the AFC West

[Gmanc711]

I think Ramsey has just learned all the wrong things under Steven Spurrier. Thats not to say that steve didnt do some good for Ramsey, cause I'm sure he did. He, however also messed him up alot I think. Ramsey needs to defintley sit unless theres an injury this season, and pick up the offense. He's just plain not ready, which really is dissapointing to me, cause I really wanted him to lead this team.

Next season, I think we will see a different Ramsey, but right now, hes just not doing as well as he is capable, obviously. I think it all has to do with learning the system.

[MTK]

True this isn't the AFC West, so let's look at some games outside of the AFC West to see how Portis has done. These are all of the games outside of the West that he has started in his career.


2003
Cincinnati: 24-120
Pittsburgh: 15-47
Minnesota: 25-117
Baltimore: 22-86
New England: 26-111
Chicago: 14-165
Cleveland: 38-139

2002
Miami: 18-75
New England: 26-111
Seattle: 23-136
Indy: 18-88
NY: 24-103
Arizona: 24-228

Seems like he's done ok.

[SmootSmack]

Nice job Matty! The facts don't lie.

It's cliche but it's true-it all starts in the trenches. Doesn't matter if it's been Riggins, Bryant, Griffin, Riggs, Byner, Washington. Or Theismann, Schroeder, Rypien Williams.

It's all about the offensive line. That's what won us 3 Super Bowls under Gibbs. It was the offensive line that opened up massive lanes for Timmy Smith. It was the offensive line that allowed diminutive Jamie Morris set the record for most carries in a single game (45) without getting killed

Yeah Alex Gibbs was a great offensive line coach for Portis, but Buges ain't no slouch

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by smootsmack

Yeah Alex Gibbs was a great offensive line coach for Portis, but Buges ain't no slouch

Yeah, and unlike ALEX Gibbs, Buges doesn't rely on dirty blocking techniques, just solid football knowledge.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by la73hof

Now, I understand Bailey would have gotten Portis money and them some, but what would you rather have --Bailey/Jackson/Collins or Portis/Springs/Brunnel?

Personally, Portis, Springs and Brunell

[Big C]

im pretty sure that most people, who werent biased against the redskins would take portis springs and brunell...portis is an MVP candidate, who of the others is?

[illdefined]

Jackson did look good out there, reminded me of a Ricky Williams type who can put his shoulder down, i'm gonna be watching him.

Gibbs wins with what he has, but also has a knack for knowing exactly what he needs. as unpopular as it was to get Brunell, who would have thought we really did need such a veteran QB to run this offense?

Gibbs wanted offensive versatility and NFL experience. he wanted Portis.

[That Guy]

Now, I understand Bailey would have gotten Portis money and them some, but what would you rather have --Bailey/Jackson/Collins or Portis/Springs/Brunnel?

i really rather have portis/springs/brunell... jackson is an unknown, and plugging him into one of the most important positions in a team that wants to win right away is well... not the best idea in the world.

and while you aren't so hot on ramsey, wait until clubs start game planning specifically against henson and the dallas offense and see how well he does then... pre-season games are really pretty meaningless.

[la73hof]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

True this isn't the AFC West, so let's look at some games outside of the AFC West to see how Portis has done. These are all of the games outside of the West that he has started in his career.


2003
Cincinnati: 24-120
Pittsburgh: 15-47
Minnesota: 25-117
Baltimore: 22-86
New England: 26-111
Chicago: 14-165
Cleveland: 38-139

2002
Miami: 18-75
New England: 26-111
Seattle: 23-136
Indy: 18-88
NY: 24-103
Arizona: 24-228

Seems like he's done ok.

2002

Team G Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TDs FDs 20+
Pittsburgh 16 359 22.4 1375 3.8 85.9 16 77 8
Tennessee 16 372 23.2 1424 3.8 89.0 7 75 12
Oakland 16 384 24.0 1453 3.8 90.8 14 96 6
Denver 16 379 23.7 1489 3.9 93.1 21 100 8
Miami 16 407 25.4 1554 3.8 97.1 9 86 7
Tampa Bay 16 410 25.6 1554 3.8 97.1 8 79 4
San Francisco 16 394 24.6 1652 4.2 103.2 14 96 13
Carolina 16 448 28.0 1653 3.7 103.3 12 95 7
Philadelphia 16 390 24.4 1660 4.3 103.8 5 83 8
Minnesota 16 394 24.6 1666 4.2 104.1 15 83 14
San Diego 16 410 25.6 1739 4.2 108.7 15 91 6
Washington 16 435 27.2 1754 4.0 109.6 14 96 11
Baltimore 16 471 29.4 1762 3.7 110.1 17 95 12
St. Louis 16 445 27.8 1816 4.1 113.5 15 105 9
Dallas 16 481 30.1 1818 3.8 113.6 10 90 9
New York (N) 16 407 25.4 1830 4.5 114.4 12 87 15
Detroit 16 495 30.9 1967 4.0 122.9 19 111 12
New York (A) 16 427 26.7 1973 4.6 123.3 17 116 11
New Orleans 16 439 27.4 1991 4.5 124.4 18 108 16
Indianapolis 16 459 28.7 1992 4.3 124.5 16 114 4
Green Bay 16 413 25.8 1998 4.8 124.9 14 122 10
Cincinnati 16 498 31.1 2003 4.0 125.2 16 104 12
Atlanta 16 441 27.6 2047 4.6 127.9 12 97 17
Kansas City 16 431 26.9 2067 4.8 129.2 19 120 13
Jacksonville 16 487 30.4 2071 4.3 129.4 14 112 7
Chicago 16 504 31.5 2076 4.1 129.8 13 110 9
Cleveland 16 483 30.2 2079 4.3 129.9 12 107 17
Houston 16 509 31.8 2089 4.1 130.6 14 116 14
Buffalo 16 473 29.6 2122 4.5 132.6 20 107 16
Arizona 16 490 30.6 2146 4.4 134.1 17 117 11
New England 16 467 29.2 2198 4.7 137.4 17 129 15
Seattle 16 500 31.2 2441 4.9 152.6 18 140 19

The run defenses of his 3 best performances of the 6 you mention:

Arizona was 30th
NE was 31st
Seattle was dead last

Just more confirmation

Again, Portis IS TALENTED and will be a good back..the Denver scheme certainly helped BUT He's seen his share of creampuffs