Liberal Supermajority

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

God forbid anything happen to you or your family, but if anything ever did happen to you or your family, to the point of where you couldn't support yourself/your medical bills, and the majority of people carry that attitude, they might as well just turn you away at the front door of the hospital and say, "go take care of yourself."

So if something happens to me or my family, you're saying I should have the right to approach you and Saden, and FORCE you to help me pay my medical bills?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

One of the things the democrats oppose is the ability for families and individuals to deduct the cost of health care from their income taxes. So the very thing you're afraid of -- losing your job and not being able to afford insurance -- is a reality thanks to the policies of the party you apparently support. Employers can deduct the cost of insurance from their taxes, why shouldn't individuals be allowed to do the same?

Umm, how much do you think you'll get back by deducting $4800 (assuming you pay $400 in health insurance a month)? Me starting to think McCain's $5000 credit sounds better and that's a god awful plan.

I know every little thing helps but come on, a 4800 deduction nets you an extra peanut at best.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So if something happens to me or my family, you're saying I should have the right to approach you and Saden, and FORCE you to help me pay my medical bills?

I don't run a charity bro but what I am willing to do is have some of my tax money used to create universal health care system to help keep your costs down and allow your family to seek medical treatment without you lot having to fork your life savings. I mean, I already do that sort of thing with schools (no kids here BTW), police departments, and fire departments.


Yeah, I'm nice like that.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So if something happens to me or my family, you're saying I should have the right to approach you and Saden, and FORCE you to help me pay my medical bills?

What saden said...

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

I'm completely down for universal health care. I would love to give people who would never be able to afford health care the chance to get treatment they other wise, wouldn't receive.

But I hear in Canada, where they do have universal health care, that:

1) The wait lists there for organs and such are HUUUUUUGE. Bigger than what we have in the US, and people already die here waiting.

and that

2) You have to be either pregnant or dying to get any sort of good attention there. Anyone with any sort of illness deemed "minor" is shoveled medicine and pushed away.

Now this may or may not be true and it's also someones opinion. Even though I've been told this, I'm still for it. The details of it, (insurance companies, prices etc etc) I don't really care about. I'm all about the big picture, if this is implemented (technical insider mumbo jumbo aside) could it stand up?

We see every goverment programe blow up in cost and do just a fraction of what is promised. Just name one goverment program that is working and not costing way more than it should. SS, medicare, etc.. are in financial trouble. Maybe they can run it like Wall Street or our home mortgage banking because all of that is going so well.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by saden1

Umm, how much do you think you'll get back by deducting $4800 (assuming you pay $400 in health insurance a month)? Me starting to think McCain's $5000 credit sounds better and that's a god awful plan.

I know every little thing helps but come on, a 4800 deduction nets you an extra peanut at best.

Individual coverage is a lot more expensive than that for a family. Assuming no major medical issues (which bump up premiums), $1000+/month is not unlikely. That's several thousands of dollars a year if you could deduct it.

Still, this is completely separate from universal coverage.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Come on, he has everything covered. He'll never lose his job or business, his insurance will never drop him and he'll never rack-up any medical bills. Even if his insurance company drops him I'm sure he'll hire a lawyer who will sort the whole matter in matters of few months. Thanks to his hard work him and his family are set for life.

Me, I thank god I work for a company that pay 100% of my health insurance. Not a dime comes out of my pockets and that's just the way I like it...and according to Obama that's the way it'll stay.

You are paying for health insurance because its a cost to your employer and is figured in when they determine what they will pa someone. So it might not directly cost you money it was figured into how much they can afford to pay you. Also if goverment takes over health insurance plan on it costing you allot in higher taxes. Again name one thing that the goverment runs efficiently? Also a health ins. co. cannot cancel your coverage over health reason.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by saden1

Umm, how much do you think you'll get back by deducting $4800 (assuming you pay $400 in health insurance a month)? Me starting to think McCain's $5000 credit sounds better and that's a god awful plan.

I know every little thing helps but come on, a 4800 deduction nets you an extra peanut at best.

Well, if you see a $4800 deduction (or more, depending on your plan) as completely insignificant, I have no argument for you. I'll take any chance I can get that allows me to keep more of my hard-earned cash so that I can go out and find the best deal for myself.

If you like the idea that the responsibility of your health coverage should be the burden of someone else, then the current system apparently suits you fine.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by saden1

I don't run a charity bro but what I am willing to do is have some of my tax money used to create universal health care system to help keep your costs down and allow your family to seek medical treatment without you lot having to fork your life savings. I mean, I already do that sort of thing with schools (no kids here BTW), police departments, and fire departments.


Yeah, I'm nice like that.

So you don't like the idea of me coming to you directly to force you to help me pay my doctor bills, but you're fine with the government forcing you to do it on my behalf? As more and more people get older, and as the population of this country continues to rise, the cost of universal coverage will most certainly not go down. Entitlement programs are bankrupting this nation.

Adding health insurance to the already long list of obligations this government has in the form of retirement, prescription drugs, Medicare, Medicaid, Wall Street bailouts, foreign misadventures, saving the oppressed people of the world, acting as policeman of the world ... sooner or later the bill is going to come due. The last thing we should do is pile on more financial responsibilities on the government that it cannot possibly afford.

What ever happened to personal responsibility here? What happened to 'Rugged Individualism' ?? Doesn't anyone see the danger of encouraging society to be totally dependent on the government for all of our needs?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So you don't like the idea of me coming to you directly to force you to help me pay my doctor bills, but you're fine with the government forcing you to do it on my behalf? As more and more people get older, and as the population of this country continues to rise, the cost of universal coverage will most certainly not go down. Entitlement programs are bankrupting this nation.

Adding health insurance to the already long list of obligations this government has in the form of retirement, prescription drugs, Medicare, Medicaid, Wall Street bailouts, foreign misadventures, saving the oppressed people of the world, acting as policeman of the world ... sooner or later the bill is going to come due. The last thing we should do is pile on more financial responsibilities on the government that it cannot possibly afford.

What ever happened to personal responsibility here? What happened to 'Rugged Individualism' ?? Doesn't anyone see the danger of encouraging society to be totally dependent on the government for all of our needs?

I'll be happy to donate $50 to your cause. Every problem has a solution except perhaps P = NP problem. I mean by the way you sound you're basically saying all government services are bad. This of of course is not true. Some are better than others, some are vital to this nation's progress and prosperity and others can be done away with all together.

It is important to remember that this country wouldn't be where it is without the Marshall Plan, the New Deal, and the Reconstruction. Certainly we have lost some ground in terms keeping spending under control but such problem can be corrected. The Medicare bill, the farm bill, all the other shitty bills aren't permanent and can be alleviated if the people and their representatives choose to do so. David Walker is getting the ball rolling and I think people are starting to pay attention.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

I'll be happy to donate $50 to your cause. Every problem has a solution except perhaps P = NP problem. I mean by the way you sound you're basically saying all government services are bad. This of of course is not true. Some are better than others, some are vital to this nation's progress and prosperity and others can be done away with all together.

It is important to remember that this country wouldn't be where it is without the Marshall Plan, the New Deal, and the Reconstruction. Certainly we have lost some ground in terms keeping spending under control but such problem can be corrected. The Medicare bill, the farm bill, all the other shitty bills aren't permanent and can be alleviated if the people and their representatives choose to do so. David Walker is getting the ball rolling and I think people are starting to pay attention.

Ok, so name these services that the goverment does so well and that cost have not skyrocketed.

[saden1]

You implication is that everything the government touches results ins skyrocketing cost? They are to blame for how expensive elementary education and higher education have become? The cost of books? The rising cost of teacher, police officer and fire fighter salaries? The cost of prescription dugs? The cost of surgical procedures?

Certainly they can do a better job curbing waste and fraud but I fail to see how that's a government only problem.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

You implication is that everything the government touches results ins skyrocketing cost? They are to blame for how expensive elementary education and higher education have become? The cost of books? The rising cost of teacher, police officer and fire fighter salaries? The cost of prescription dugs? The cost of surgical procedures?

Certainly they can do a better job curbing waste and fraud but I fail to see how that's a government only problem.

So you cannot think of a well run program. On education. Don't we spend more then just about any other nation per student but our kids are falling further and further behind other developed nations? The federal goverment does not pay for police or fire fighters. Goverment does restrict us from going out and buying prescription drugs from places like Canada to save money.

[onlydarksets]

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