6 WEEKS AGO: Trade Ramsey, Bench/trade Gardner

[Hogskin]

Matty,

First, I never said Ramsey was garbage. What I have said since the offseason is:

- He has some serious problems that he needs to correct. He is VERY slow in his thought processes AND has a very slow release. So when he finally decides where to throw it, it takes too long to release. His footwork is very bad - needs work.

- We should trade him for a top OL or DL and work with Hasselbeck, who has many fewer problems. If we don't we risk him losing all of his trade value.

NOW, we went minicamps AND preseason, and he showed ABSOLUTELY no progress on ANY of his faults. He still has a terrific arm and LOTS of problems, including poor decision-making. But now, everyone else knows what we know, so his value is extremely low.

AND QB of the FUTURE??? That would have been true a while back, but since he has shown no ability (or maybe willingness?) to improve on his glaring weaknesses, I can not imagine anyone still seeing him in that role. THe guys that make it in this league are the guys that LEARN and IMPROVE. He is still at the exact level he was at when he was drafted. Let someone else take on this unlikely project.

LASTLY, the problems I am talking about have nothing to do with learning Gibbs' system. These are basic flaws in his technique that no system can hide.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Hogskin

Matty,

First, I never said Ramsey was garbage. What I have said since the offseason is:

- He has some serious problems that he needs to correct. He is VERY slow in his thought processes AND has a very slow release. So when he finally decides where to throw it, it takes too long to release. His footwork is very bad - needs work.

- We should trade him for a top OL or DL and work with Hasselbeck, who has many fewer problems. If we don't we risk him losing all of his trade value.

NOW, we went minicamps AND preseason, and he showed ABSOLUTELY no progress on ANY of his faults. He still has a terrific arm and LOTS of problems, including poor decision-making. But now, everyone else knows what we know, so his value is extremely low.

AND QB of the FUTURE??? That would have been true a while back, but since he has shown no ability (or maybe willingness?) to improve on his glaring weaknesses, I can not imagine anyone still seeing him in that role. THe guys that make it in this league are the guys that LEARN and IMPROVE. He is still at the exact level he was at when he was drafted. Let someone else take on this unlikely project.

To add to Hogskins points... Ramsey had these same problems in college. He was sacked a ton at Tulane. Yes his line at Tulane sucked and last year his line sucked, but he still keeps hagging onto the ball to long. Why has he not learned? Show some ability to adapt. Ramsey really reminds me alot of Drew Bledsoe. Another QB with all the tools but cannot change his style of play. Holds on to the ball to long and takes a ton of sacks. Those sacks leads to turnovers or loss of precious field position.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Hogskin

Matty,

First, I never said Ramsey was garbage. What I have said since the offseason is:

- He has some serious problems that he needs to correct. He is VERY slow in his thought processes AND has a very slow release. So when he finally decides where to throw it, it takes too long to release. His footwork is very bad - needs work.

- We should trade him for a top OL or DL and work with Hasselbeck, who has many fewer problems. If we don't we risk him losing all of his trade value.

NOW, we went minicamps AND preseason, and he showed ABSOLUTELY no progress on ANY of his faults. He still has a terrific arm and LOTS of problems, including poor decision-making. But now, everyone else knows what we know, so his value is extremely low.

AND QB of the FUTURE??? That would have been true a while back, but since he has shown no ability (or maybe willingness?) to improve on his glaring weaknesses, I can not imagine anyone still seeing him in that role. THe guys that make it in this league are the guys that LEARN and IMPROVE. He is still at the exact level he was at when he was drafted. Let someone else take on this unlikely project.

John, I expected you to have been a bit more of a rationale thinker, I'm kinda surprised.

Answer me this, we have a new offense that even an 11 year vet is stuggling to pick up. We have an offense that Joe Theismann said took him a year to figure out. So we should just trade Ramsey and move on, you don't think that's jumping the gun a bit?

Let's forget about Ramsey's first two seasons for a moment, because in hindsight they were worthless to his development. He was playing in a joke of an offense and he developed some bad habits, habits that aren't going to be corrected in 4 weeks of training camp.

To me, Ramsey is a rookie this season for all purposes.

I'm not saying he's the QB of the future, but if I had to bet I'd put my money on him over Hasselbeck every time.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

LOL this board is utterly ridiculous today

Let me see if I have this straight, Ramsey is garbage. Even though he's a 3rd year QB who's a bright guy with a strong arm, he clearly can't win in this league (why Gibbs doesn't know this is beyond me).

Let's forget the fact he was rushed in to starting as a rookie and played in a flawed system with not much of a running game or protection.

I can't believe he hasn't picked up Gibbs' system already, a system that Joe Theismann admits took him an entire season before he felt comfortable. Let's also overlook the fact that Mark Brunell, an 11 year vet, is also struggling in picking up the system. Ramsey is clearly not going to ever amount to anything. He's had his chance, we should move on, right? I mean c'mon, he's had 16 starts, that's enough, time to hand it over to third string Tim Hasselbeck who at this time last year was sitting at home like us. We should just bench Brunell now, trade Ramsey and start TH. I really don't know what Gibbs is thinking.

I am late getting to this thread, thank's Matty for setting the boy's straight! I can't believe such utter nonesense, I guess the cowboy's should have dumped Aikman after his 3rd year, Troy was starting to be looked at as a bust, in fact people wanted Steve Burlien to start, what did TH do in the pre season that was so great, I guess everyone has forgotten about his zero QB rating in one of his start's last year, everyone is talking about fumbling as if it's all Ramsey, what about Brunnell? I guess he get's a free pass, even though he's cost us point's because he can't get out from behind the center, Ramsey drove us down the field almost every time he had the ball, a far cry from Brunnell, who had the first team to work with in practice the last 2 week's, fact is if Gardner can make a simple 5 yd. catch, Ramsey is a hero, and everyone is yelling for him to start, I said it when we traded for him, Ramsey is, and will be a far better QB than Brunnell, If Brunnell was brought here because of his expierience, then I expect him to play like a veteran, but he's not, so what is it, Brunnell, or learning Gibb's system, either way Ramsey win's out. I have no doubt that it's only a matter of time before Ramsey start's to flurish under Gibb's, but he has to play, and I doubt Brunnell can start this week, if he couldn't finish the game last week, if he can't run he's finished as a QB, unlike Ramsey who has the ability to take a defense apart from the pocket.

[SUNRA]

The Giants have a new head coach, 2 new QBs, a new defensive line ( except Strahan),a new offensive line, 2 new CB's and they still beat us. I think that's a new system with new problems. But we didn't lose because of new players or a new system. We lost because of 3 INTS in the 2 half of this game. The Giants offense scored only 10 points. We had 20 first downs. That's a good system wouldn't you say? Afterall, Brunelll did move us down the field on the most successful drive this year. Believe me the offense understands what Gibbs system. I said it once, I'll say it again, there is no consistent execution by our starters. A drop, a catch, a completion , an interception is not going to get it done in anybody's system.

What happeneded in that 3rd and 4th quarter will go down in my mind as the most embarrassing performance for a 3 year future "franchise player" I've seen. It was horrendous, even sickening. No more excuses for Ramsey about his lack of NFL experience. He should have gone to NFL Europe over the summer. He's had enough time to know to throw an incompletion rather than a interception.

[ArringtonRules]

c'mon guys... let's not get down on the offense yet. Yes Ramsey struggled, but you have to realise that he has not been taking regular number of snaps and not been practising with the first team. He was put in a very dicey situation.
Guys you have to realise that Ramsey is playing for a new coach, who has a different offensive strategy that Ol' Ball Coach. He just has 2 years of experience under him. You have to be a little patient with him, WHICH is hard to do considering that he threw 2 interceptions in the red zone and killed our drive. I am frustateed with his play but I trust the coaching staff on this one.
The problem I have is why the OL can't seem to find holes. They find holes in one drive and after that it seems as if the defense figures them out and portis struggles to get yards. Our first drive was perfect, but after that all of a sudden the NY D was able to get some pressure on Brunell and he was hurried and forced on a lot of throws.
Also Brunell is WAY inaccurate on long throws. He tried a couple to Coles but was way off the mark. The problem is a lot of teams are gonna DARE Brunell to throw long and try and cut his intermediate passes. this is exactly what the giants D did and brunell was unable to make use of the oppurtunity. QB spot id gonna be a really worry this year!!!

[Riggo44]

I hope all you PR haters out there stay of the band wagon when the kid start's to come around. And trust me he will.

[SmootSmack]

I'm not going to speak for Hogskins (or anyone else who has conerns about Ramsey) here but I think you can be critical of Ramsey and still be loyal, and not a PR-hater.

I'm rooting for Ramsey to do well. Not just because he's a Redskin but because I believe he has the ability to do really well in this league. Still, he has flaws in his game that can't just be overlooked. I think it's all mental really

That being said, Sunday's loss-as others have repeatedly said already-cannot be pinned entirely on Ramsey. Everyone is to blame

[MTK]

And what exactly has Hasselbeck done to prove he should be ahead of Ramsey on the depth chart??

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

And what exactly has Hasselbeck done to prove he should be ahead of Ramsey on the depth chart??

Nothing , but I never claimed that he deserved anything but a chance. I never said TH was the next Bret Farv or the next great QB. I think Ramsey has received the benefit of the doubt. Even despite his terrible game yesterday, there are many that think he is the next great QB. I don't get it. I am not giving up on Ramsey like some folks. But it is time to put Ramsey in a new light: a developing QB who is still not very good.

[SUNRA]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

And what exactly has Hasselbeck done to prove he should be ahead of Ramsey on the depth chart??

1.More NFL experience that Ramsey. (Throws the ball away)
2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won.
3. Gibbs asked the question in training camp, who's that guy making those passes? He then said, we may have 3 QB's fighting for 1# spot.
4. Better footwork. Simply quicker than both Brunell and Ramsey.
5.Plays with passion. Unlike Ramsey, who looks like he's not enjoying his opportunity that few people have the priviledge to enjoy.
6. Can motivate this team to execute with confidence out of the huddle.

[Hogskin]

I agree 100%, Sunra. I think Gibbs had no choice in the preseason other than to keep Brunell and Ramsey 1/2 in one order or the other. Any other move would have caused problems with the fans, media, and players. His comments showed that he was surprised by TH and had a good feeling about him. I think now (or very soon), we will see some changes start to occur. TH will get an opportunity sometime soon to show if his preseason (and last season) performances were for real or a fluke.

[Hogskin]

Matty,

I just saw your last post. My extreme disappointment that you have seen in this thread, and that you responded to, are not about a new system. They are about Ramsey's terrible fundamentals - footwork, slow release, slow decision-making. These have been constants since I first saw him. In 2 seasons PLUS a Gibbs training camp, if he can show NO improvement in any of his fundamentals, I do not see it as irrational to begin to give up on him. Sorry, I don't like to dis a promising Redskin, but for me, he has shown no ability to improve. If it were "system" issues, I would not feel this way.

[LadyT]

It got me to thinking whether the rest of the offense still has any faith in Ramsey, despite what they might say publicly.

They, like a lot of us, have got to be questioning whether he will ever develop into a starting quarterback. Let's not forget, this is not his first season by any means.

What is most troubling is that he seems to be getting worse, not better. Or, at best, he is treading water instead of improving.

I agree with the poster that questioned some of his basic techniques and he certainly hasn't shown me that he has the quick thought processes that a QB needs to make split-second decisions. Could be that he just doesn't have the smarts to play this position in the NFL as a starter, despite what may be good physical talents. If the mental part isn't there, no amount of coaching will change that.

[Shane]

We can start Hasselbeck and see what he is able to do, or I think it is likely we will continue to struggle on offense.

We need to experiment in order to find out more about what Hasselbeck brings to the table. We want to be objective about this and not go on presumptions and our likes and dislikes about players. Or do we think we know everything already about everyone?

I think Gibbs wanted to hold onto Ramsey because he did and perhaps still does see his potential. In retrospect, it would have been great to let Ramsey leave like he apparently wanted to and to have traded him to Miami where he might have had a better chance to develop. His problems with decision making go beyond just learning a new system. It could be that he will take longer to develop than the Redskins can afford to wait. It may be that he will not ever develop into a top flight quarterback. However, it was probably the best decision at the time, as Gibbs wanted a promising player to develop and a veteran who could start now.

I think that Gibbs does have to let Ramsey and Brunell demonstrate on the field what they are able to do, and then if we continue to struggle, fans will start to create a climate where Hasselbeck will be welcomed and not criticized and judged by fans, and can come in and not be seen as someone who is prematurely replacing one of their favorites.