I think Jim Zorn is a great head football coach.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Joe Gibbs 1 was a great football coach. Bill Walsh was a great football coach. Bill Belichick is a great football coach. Jim Zorn is not a great football coach, he may not even be a good offensive coordinator. The jury is still out.

If the jury is still out, saying he IS a great football coach is just as valid as saying he IS NOT a great football coach isn't it?

[skinsnut]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

The jury is still out.

very funny...we typed the same phrase at the same time without knowing it...that should tell you something

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Joe Gibbs 1 was a great football coach. Bill Walsh was a great football coach. Bill Belichick is a great football coach. Jim Zorn is not a great football coach, he may not even be a good offensive coordinator. The jury is still out.

Seriously. I don't care how bad the O line was, 12 points a game over the last 8 is putrid. How can anyone see signs of greatness in last year's performance?

Reasons he may not even be a good offensive coordinator:

1) Couldn't get production out of the rooks when other teams were doing it all over the league. If the Eagles could get almost 1000 yards from that knucklehead Desean Jackson, Zorn should have been able to get more out of Davis, Kelly and Thomas. Don't tell me they can't read playbooks. They read playbooks well enough to be high draft picks in the NFL. Simplify if need be, and get the guys to produce on the field.

2) The running game - 342 carries for a guy who's best run went for 31 yards? The best running teams use multiple weapons out of the backfield. We had good enough talent, but Zorn chose to run Portis into the ground instead of developing weapons out of the other guys.

3) Passing game - weak and uncreative. Like someone else said, where were the no huddle plays? The trick plays? The roll-outs to give Campbell more time to throw? Teams like the Chargers and Dolphins regularly threw to their running backs for huge gains. Our RBs were non-existent in the passing game, making it all that much easier to defend the offense.

4) Mike Sellers on the goal-line. I don't care what he says, Zorn gave those carries to Sellers, because he was miffed with Portis. He let his personal feelings get the better of him. Not what great coaches do.

5) Nobody else wanted him even as an offensive coordinator. Are we supposed to think the FO knows something the rest of the league doesn't? Why? Because of their stellar track record?

I am one who thinks the 6-2 start last year was more of a fluke than an indication of what Zorn can do on a long term basis with a healthy team. I believe other teams figured him out once there was enough film to be studied and he was unable to adjust. There were some first year coaches that did show signs of greatness last year (Harbaugh, Sparano, Smith). Unfortunately, Zorn wasn't one of them (In my opinion).

But I hope you guys are right. I'd gladly eat crow over this one.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Seriously. I don't care how bad the O line was, 12 points a game over the last 8 is putrid. How can anyone see signs of greatness in last year's performance?

Reasons he may not even be a good offensive coordinator:

1) Couldn't get production out of the rooks when other teams were doing it all over the league. If the Eagles could get almost 1000 yards from that knucklehead Desean Jackson, Zorn should have been able to get more out of Davis, Kelly and Thomas. Don't tell me they can't read playbooks. They read playbooks well enough to be high draft picks in the NFL. Simplify if need be, and get the guys to produce on the field.

2) The running game - 342 carries for a guy who's best run went for 31 yards? The best running teams use multiple weapons out of the backfield. We had good enough talent, but Zorn chose to run Portis into the ground instead of developing weapons out of the other guys.

3) Passing game - weak and uncreative. Like someone else said, where were the no huddle plays? The trick plays? The roll-outs to give Campbell more time to throw? Teams like the Chargers and Dolphins regularly threw to their running backs for huge gains. Our RBs were non-existent in the passing game, making it all that much easier to defend the offense.

4) Mike Sellers on the goal-line. I don't care what he says, Zorn gave those carries to Sellers, because he was miffed with Portis. He let his personal feelings get the better of him. Not what great coaches do.

5) Nobody else wanted him even as an offensive coordinator. Are we supposed to think the FO knows something the rest of the league doesn't? Why? Because of their stellar track record?

I am one who thinks the 6-2 start last year was more of a fluke than an indication of what Zorn can do on a long term basis with a healthy team. I believe other teams figured him out once there was enough film to be studied and he was unable to adjust. There were some first year coaches that did show signs of greatness last year (Harbaugh, Sparano, Smith). Unfortunately, Zorn wasn't one of them (In my opinion).

But I hope you guys are right. I'd gladly eat crow over this one.

great point. it's the staff's job to get these guys to learn the plays. i remember doc walker killing the staff about this last year. but last year is done with so let's hopefully see improvments this year.

[joethiesmanfan]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Seriously. I don't care how bad the O line was, 12 points a game over the last 8 is putrid. How can anyone see signs of greatness in last year's performance?

Reasons he may not even be a good offensive coordinator:

1) Couldn't get production out of the rooks when other teams were doing it all over the league. If the Eagles could get almost 1000 yards from that knucklehead Desean Jackson, Zorn should have been able to get more out of Davis, Kelly and Thomas. Don't tell me they can't read playbooks. They read playbooks well enough to be high draft picks in the NFL. Simplify if need be, and get the guys to produce on the field.

2) The running game - 342 carries for a guy who's best run went for 31 yards? The best running teams use multiple weapons out of the backfield. We had good enough talent, but Zorn chose to run Portis into the ground instead of developing weapons out of the other guys.

3) Passing game - weak and uncreative. Like someone else said, where were the no huddle plays? The trick plays? The roll-outs to give Campbell more time to throw? Teams like the Chargers and Dolphins regularly threw to their running backs for huge gains. Our RBs were non-existent in the passing game, making it all that much easier to defend the offense.

4) Mike Sellers on the goal-line. I don't care what he says, Zorn gave those carries to Sellers, because he was miffed with Portis. He let his personal feelings get the better of him. Not what great coaches do.

5) Nobody else wanted him even as an offensive coordinator. Are we supposed to think the FO knows something the rest of the league doesn't? Why? Because of their stellar track record?

I am one who thinks the 6-2 start last year was more of a fluke than an indication of what Zorn can do on a long term basis with a healthy team. I believe other teams figured him out once there was enough film to be studied and he was unable to adjust. There were some first year coaches that did show signs of greatness last year (Harbaugh, Sparano, Smith). Unfortunately, Zorn wasn't one of them (In my opinion).

But I hope you guys are right. I'd gladly eat crow over this one.

I agree 100% percent, at the end of the year I was mad at Zorn but over the off season I have mellowed out and kinda like the guy. But if he don't learn how to adjust he needs to go. It took over 4 weeks before he learned how to beat that tactic used by the Steelers "overload one side". The solution to that problem made me throw up, and showed arrogance on Zorn's part. Running one wide receiver screen against Baltimore and that was the last time that tactic was used against our offense. No brainer, but not part of his system. That fast every other team we played took notice of our adjustment. We need to be just as swift. I think he now understands why Gibbs slept at the office. If not, he can play golf with the Ole ball coach.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Seriously. I don't care how bad the O line was, 12 points a game over the last 8 is putrid. How can anyone see signs of greatness in last year's performance?

Reasons he may not even be a good offensive coordinator:

1) Couldn't get production out of the rooks when other teams were doing it all over the league. If the Eagles could get almost 1000 yards from that knucklehead Desean Jackson, Zorn should have been able to get more out of Davis, Kelly and Thomas. Don't tell me they can't read playbooks. They read playbooks well enough to be high draft picks in the NFL. Simplify if need be, and get the guys to produce on the field.

2) The running game - 342 carries for a guy who's best run went for 31 yards? The best running teams use multiple weapons out of the backfield. We had good enough talent, but Zorn chose to run Portis into the ground instead of developing weapons out of the other guys.

3) Passing game - weak and uncreative. Like someone else said, where were the no huddle plays? The trick plays? The roll-outs to give Campbell more time to throw? Teams like the Chargers and Dolphins regularly threw to their running backs for huge gains. Our RBs were non-existent in the passing game, making it all that much easier to defend the offense.

4) Mike Sellers on the goal-line. I don't care what he says, Zorn gave those carries to Sellers, because he was miffed with Portis. He let his personal feelings get the better of him. Not what great coaches do.

5) Nobody else wanted him even as an offensive coordinator. Are we supposed to think the FO knows something the rest of the league doesn't? Why? Because of their stellar track record?

I am one who thinks the 6-2 start last year was more of a fluke than an indication of what Zorn can do on a long term basis with a healthy team. I believe other teams figured him out once there was enough film to be studied and he was unable to adjust. There were some first year coaches that did show signs of greatness last year (Harbaugh, Sparano, Smith). Unfortunately, Zorn wasn't one of them (In my opinion).

But I hope you guys are right. I'd gladly eat crow over this one.

1. All over the league? I think you may be generalizing just a bit. I guarantee there were many more rookies that struggled vs. those that made a smooth transition and contributed meaningful numbers in their first years.

2. & 4. You're contradicting yourself here. First he pounds Portis into the ground and then he's miffed at him and takes away goal line carries? If he was so miffed at him why did he give him 342 carries? And CP still had a respectable 9 TDs, so these points really make no sense.

3. If you can't master the basics you probably shouldn't be running gimmicks. Besides, not sure how tossing it to the backs would have made the offense any more "creative".

5. There are plenty of coaches that are off the league's radar that turn into fine coaches, just as there are plenty of hot prospects that flop.

[ronnieo]

I like Zorn, but unfortunately good coach or not, he will be replaced at the end of the season. Too many high profile coaches out there for DS to sink his teeth into and he will not be able to resist unless we make the Super Bowl this yea!!!!!!

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by ronnieo

I like Zorn, but unfortunately good coach or not, he will be replaced at the end of the season. Too many high profile coaches out there for DS to sink his teeth into and he will not be able to resist unless we make the Super Bowl this yea!!!!!!

If Zorn takes the team to the playoff, his job will be safe.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

1. All over the league? I think you may be generalizing just a bit. I guarantee there were many more rookies that struggled vs. those that made a smooth transition and contributed meaningful numbers in their first years.

2. & 4. You're contradicting yourself here. First he pounds Portis into the ground and then he's miffed at him and takes away goal line carries? If he was so miffed at him why did he give him 342 carries? And CP still had a respectable 9 TDs, so these points really make no sense.

3. If you can't master the basics you probably shouldn't be running gimmicks. Besides, not sure how tossing it to the backs would have made the offense any more "creative".

5. There are plenty of coaches that are off the league's radar that turn into fine coaches, just as there are plenty of hot prospects that flop.

We did some things pretty well until the o-line started falling apart. To add more plays and gimmicks to a team that was struggling with learning a new offense, a rookie receiver who wasn't running the correct routes half the time, and 2nd string o-linemen playing out of position, would have made us look more like the Keystone Kops out there than a professional football team IMO. Once that happened, I would have probably wanted to fire Zorn myself. We always talk about how we wouldn't mind taking a losing season or two, if it would get us on the right track and make us stronger in the long run. Well? Hopefully that is what's happening.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

1. All over the league? I think you may be generalizing just a bit. I guarantee there were many more rookies that struggled vs. those that made a smooth transition and contributed meaningful numbers in their first years.

2. & 4. You're contradicting yourself here. First he pounds Portis into the ground and then he's miffed at him and takes away goal line carries? If he was so miffed at him why did he give him 342 carries? And CP still had a respectable 9 TDs, so these points really make no sense.

3. If you can't master the basics you probably shouldn't be running gimmicks. Besides, not sure how tossing it to the backs would have made the offense any more "creative".

5. There are plenty of coaches that are off the league's radar that turn into fine coaches, just as there are plenty of hot prospects that flop.

Ditto

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Seriously. I don't care how bad the O line was, 12 points a game over the last 8 is putrid. How can anyone see signs of greatness in last year's performance?

Reasons he may not even be a good offensive coordinator:

1) Couldn't get production out of the rooks when other teams were doing it all over the league. If the Eagles could get almost 1000 yards from that knucklehead Desean Jackson, Zorn should have been able to get more out of Davis, Kelly and Thomas. Don't tell me they can't read playbooks. They read playbooks well enough to be high draft picks in the NFL. Simplify if need be, and get the guys to produce on the field.

2) The running game - 342 carries for a guy who's best run went for 31 yards? The best running teams use multiple weapons out of the backfield. We had good enough talent, but Zorn chose to run Portis into the ground instead of developing weapons out of the other guys.

3) Passing game - weak and uncreative. Like someone else said, where were the no huddle plays? The trick plays? The roll-outs to give Campbell more time to throw? Teams like the Chargers and Dolphins regularly threw to their running backs for huge gains. Our RBs were non-existent in the passing game, making it all that much easier to defend the offense.

4) Mike Sellers on the goal-line. I don't care what he says, Zorn gave those carries to Sellers, because he was miffed with Portis. He let his personal feelings get the better of him. Not what great coaches do.

5) Nobody else wanted him even as an offensive coordinator. Are we supposed to think the FO knows something the rest of the league doesn't? Why? Because of their stellar track record?

I am one who thinks the 6-2 start last year was more of a fluke than an indication of what Zorn can do on a long term basis with a healthy team. I believe other teams figured him out once there was enough film to be studied and he was unable to adjust. There were some first year coaches that did show signs of greatness last year (Harbaugh, Sparano, Smith). Unfortunately, Zorn wasn't one of them (In my opinion).

But I hope you guys are right. I'd gladly eat crow over this one.

I can see your point of view on most of your sentiments and some I agee with and some I don't.

Having said that I want to focus on the items that I bolded in your post.

First of all running trick plays is a little more difficult than people think. To be able to run trick plays you have to be able to execute your basic plays on a regular basis. The defense has to believe and commit to what they see to bite on a trick play. Plain and simple, we couldn't execute basic plays, there was no chance for a trick play.

Second involving your backs in the passing game requires the one element that we didn't have last year...time. The running back in a passing play is usually the 3rd read or later in the QB's progression. The exception to that rule is the screen play. I believe that we could use some more of these. JC didn't have enough time to hit his hot reads on many occasions; how in the world was he supposed to hit the 3rd, 4th, or 5th reads?

Essentially both of these areas can be inproved upon with improved pass protection and offensive execution in general.

[Lotus]

Unless the team utterly flops this year, I hope that we stick with Zorn and don't get impatient. I think that Zorn can be a very fine head coach, whether that is clearly evident this year or not, and this team needs continuity.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Unless the team utterly flops this year, I hope that we stick with Zorn and don't get impatient. I think that Zorn can be a very fine head coach, whether that is clearly evident this year or not, and this team needs continuity.

That's what I'm screaming. The one thing that this team has lacked on offense is consistency. I think that DS has to give Z some time. If he doesn't, none of the other "proven" coaches will have the comfort of knowing they'll not be fired after two seasons. DS has to live down his reputation. I think three to four years should be long enough for any coach to turn a team around, not one or two.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Seriously. I don't care how bad the O line was, 12 points a game over the last 8 is putrid. How can anyone see signs of greatness in last year's performance?

How do you score points with an OL devastated by injury, against the Giants, Ravens, Steelers, Cowboys, Eagles.

1) Couldn't get production out of the rooks when other teams were doing it all over the league. If the Eagles could get almost 1000 yards from that knucklehead Desean Jackson, Zorn should have been able to get more out of Davis, Kelly and Thomas. Don't tell me they can't read playbooks. They read playbooks well enough to be high draft picks in the NFL. Simplify if need be, and get the guys to produce on the field.

Kelly - injured. Davis - How do you get him into the game when you have a Pro Bowl TE and haven't had time to install a complete offensive package. Thomas - not an issue with "can't" it was a matter of "wouldn't" read the playbook. His attitude appears changed this year. To me his motivation is an issue that should've been handled by the position coach or OC (S. Smith)

2) The running game - 342 carries for a guy who's best run went for 31 yards? The best running teams use multiple weapons out of the backfield. We had good enough talent, but Zorn chose to run Portis into the ground instead of developing weapons out of the other guys.

When the run game was working Zorn fed Portis. Any good coach does that. When the running game was struggling Portis got less carries to not wear him down. Team/carries Steelers/13, Cowboys/15, Seahawks/29, Giants/11, Ravens/11, Bengals/25, Eagles/22, 49ers/29 (this is the only game late in the year where the YPC was low and Portis had a heavy workload). The only opponents during this stretch that had a somewhat balanced workload for their backs were the Giants (Jacobs/Ward), Ravens (Mclain/McGahee), 49ers (Gore/Foster). If Zorn put Betts in and he fumbled in a key situation, the Negative Nancy crowd would be screaming Zorn is a bad coach for putting Betts in.

3) Passing game - weak and uncreative. Like someone else said, where were the no huddle plays? The trick plays? The roll-outs to give Campbell more time to throw? Teams like the Chargers and Dolphins regularly threw to their running backs for huge gains. Our RBs were non-existent in the passing game, making it all that much easier to defend the offense.

It's been said before, Zorn didn't have his whole package in. If you remember correctly Gibbs' retirement and the coaching search was pretty sudden. Our offensive system change was a major overhaul in the passing game. How do you execute a no-huddle when the offense is still being learned? Here's some numbers for you: Redskins - 20% of passes to RB/FB.
Dolphins - 26%
Chargers - 33%

Team X - 18.4%
Team Y - 16.8%

Are the OC's of team X & Y bad OCs? I'm sure you guessed by now who Team X & Y are? X - Cardinals, Y - Steelers.

4) Mike Sellers on the goal-line. I don't care what he says, Zorn gave those carries to Sellers, because he was miffed with Portis. He let his personal feelings get the better of him. Not what great coaches do.

Possibly. Or, he believed his 270+ lb Pro Bowl FB could get in from the 1. For the record though, I agree that was a bad couple of playcalls. Sellers isn't a ball carrier. He's a blocker and decent receiver out of the backfield. But do we say Zorn sucks because he made one mistake at a crucial point? I don't believe so.

5) Nobody else wanted him even as an offensive coordinator. Are we supposed to think the FO knows something the rest of the league doesn't? Why? Because of their stellar track record?

If I remember correctly during the HC search, most of the HC candidates mentioned Zorn as a very good OC candidate. The FO track record over the last 4-5 years is far superior to the first 5 years. We'll find out this season, but if DT & Rinehart gain starting roles, Kelly/Davis produce, and we get solid play from Orakpo and Barnes I'd say the FO is doing pretty good.

I am one who thinks the 6-2 start last year was more of a fluke than an indication of what Zorn can do on a long term basis with a healthy team. I believe other teams figured him out once there was enough film to be studied and he was unable to adjust. There were some first year coaches that did show signs of greatness last year (Harbaugh, Sparano, Smith). Unfortunately, Zorn wasn't one of them (In my opinion).

But I hope you guys are right. I'd gladly eat crow over this one.

I believe you will be proven wrong. IMO the 2-6 finish had a lot more to do with OL injuries/age and the defense's inability to stop people in the 4th Qtr and create turnovers than Zorn's coaching ability.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

How do you score points with an OL devastated by injury, against the Giants, Ravens, Steelers, Cowboys, Eagles..

Umm, good coaching? They weren't exactly lighting it up on offense when the O line wasn't "devastated" and they couldn't even score against the Rams and Lions (needed a punt return to win that game). It's one thing to struggle, it's another thing to score 12 points a game.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Kelly - injured. Davis - How do you get him into the game when you have a Pro Bowl TE and haven't had time to install a complete offensive package. Thomas - not an issue with "can't" it was a matter of "wouldn't" read the playbook. His attitude appears changed this year. To me his motivation is an issue that should've been handled by the position coach or OC (S. Smith)

Time? Several teams had new head coaches, new offensive coordinators and/or new QBs and they found a way to "install" their offense and get rooks to produce at least a little. The Skins had an excuse for every rookie. Even Chris Horton, as good as he was, would have ridden the pine all year if it hadn't been for Doughty going down. 1 out of 10 draft picks contribute???

I am not inclined to give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt until they prove they deserve it. If our rooks can't get on the field playing for one of the worst offenses in the league, then they are either worthless, which is an indictment of the FO, or the coaching staff sucks at player development. Could be a little bit of both.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

When the run game was working Zorn fed Portis. Any good coach does that. When the running game was struggling Portis got less carries to not wear him down. Team/carries Steelers/13, Cowboys/15, Seahawks/29, Giants/11, Ravens/11, Bengals/25, Eagles/22, 49ers/29 (this is the only game late in the year where the YPC was low and Portis had a heavy workload). The only opponents during this stretch that had a somewhat balanced workload for their backs were the Giants (Jacobs/Ward), Ravens (Mclain/McGahee), 49ers (Gore/Foster). If Zorn put Betts in and he fumbled in a key situation, the Negative Nancy crowd would be screaming Zorn is a bad coach for putting Betts in.

Fine. Feed him. But why not develop him into a passing threat as well, especially since our WRs are so mediocre? And I don't know how anyone could expect Portis to hold up all year with the recent injuries and his overall tread. Because they relied so much on Portis, no one was able to step up when he and the O line started to wear down. Dallas has a balanced running attack and a home run hitter in Felix Jones. I think he was injured in the second half. The Eagles pass 70% of the time and have a multi-dimensional back who can score from anywhere on the field, whether the ball is handed to him or thrown to him. All I'm saying is we have 2 1000 yard backs and a guy like Rock who can make things happen when he gets the ball in space (as evident from his kick-off returns for TDs). And Portis fumbles too, so big whoop. I think and hope Zorn will mix things up this year.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

It's been said before, Zorn didn't have his whole package in. If you remember correctly Gibbs' retirement and the coaching search was pretty sudden. Our offensive system change was a major overhaul in the passing game. How do you execute a no-huddle when the offense is still being learned? .

Exactly how many games are required to throw in a no-huddle series every now and again to keep the defense off-balance? Again, several teams experienced significant change and still did more with what they had. If the players couldn't figure out Zorn's offense when only a third of it was installed, then I shudder to think what's going to happen when he unleashes his entire scary offensive repertoire. As much as I hate the Ravens, they had a new HC, rookie QB and new offensive coordinator and their offense was prolific during the second half of the year and they successfully ran trick plays on a regular basis. And I know, I know. Their D and their O line... blah blah.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Here's some numbers for you: Redskins - 20% of passes to RB/FB.
Dolphins - 26%
Chargers - 33%

Team X - 18.4%
Team Y - 16.8%

Are the OC's of team X & Y bad OCs? I'm sure you guessed by now who Team X & Y are? X - Cardinals, Y - Steelers.

The Dolphins and Chargers do it by design and for long gains, while the Skins checked down for 5 yard gains on 3rd and 10. In the playoff game against the Ravens, the Dolphins went 80 yards for a score on the opening drive without throwing a single pass to a WR (all passes went to RBs, including their third back). Portis falling down to catch a 5 yard dink counts in your stats, but it doesn't tell the true story of our offense.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Possibly. Or, he believed his 270+ lb Pro Bowl FB could get in from the 1. For the record though, I agree that was a bad couple of playcalls. Sellers isn't a ball carrier. He's a blocker and decent receiver out of the backfield. But do we say Zorn sucks because he made one mistake at a crucial point? I don't believe so.

And he would believe this because? When has Sellers shown the skills to be a goal line back? And if LBS is all that counts, then give the ball to Samuels. Zorn did it to spite Portis. And I don't think Zorn sucks. I think there's more evidence to indicate he WILL suck than there is to indicate he will be GREAT. Like I said, I hope I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

If I remember correctly during the HC search, most of the HC candidates mentioned Zorn as a very good OC candidate. The FO track record over the last 4-5 years is far superior to the first 5 years. We'll find out this season, but if DT & Rinehart gain starting roles, Kelly/Davis produce, and we get solid play from Orakpo and Barnes I'd say the FO is doing pretty good.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I believe you will be proven wrong. IMO the 2-6 finish had a lot more to do with OL injuries/age and the defense's inability to stop people in the 4th Qtr and create turnovers than Zorn's coaching ability.

I hope you are right.