S.F. weighs protecting ex-cons seeking homes, jobs

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Why shouldn't they be discriminated against? Forget recidivism. That's an ambiguous reason anyway. Joe makes a good point that individuals shouldn't be forced to shoulder the risks of society. If someone doesn't want to hire someone because they're a convicted criminal I see no problem with it.

Paying for your crimes shouldn't be indefinite. If you can't get a job or housing after you did your time what is the point of being released? We have laws that protect disable people and their ability find jobs and adequateness housing and this is no different from legal prospective.

Anyone can be a criminal even if they have yet to commit a crime and nothing good can come from society at large cornering former inmates.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

Paying for your crimes shouldn't be indefinite. If you can't get a job or housing after you did your time what is the point of being released? We have laws that protect disable people and their ability find jobs and adequateness housing and this is no different from legal prospective.

Anyone can be a criminal even if they have yet to commit a crime and nothing good can come from society at large cornering former inmates.

You have paid your debt to society when you complete your sentence, you owe nothing more to society as a whole. As an individual, however, I am free to judge you based on past conduct. I wouldn't rent to someone who credit report shows that they are constantly late on payments even if they are not currently in debt (i.e - you've paid your debt in the most literal sense).

Just b/c your not currently in jail doesn't mean your past choices won't affect how you use my property in the future. Sorry, incentivize all you want to, assist people honestly trying to rehabilitate themselves - provide tax breaks to people who rent to them, etc. - or create government housing, but don't force me to risk my economic prospects on someone who has exhibited criminal behavior in the past. Again, on a more basic level, and to me, it is just wrong to extend constitutionally "protected class" status to something that is not an immutable characteristic or an exercise of 1st amendment rights (i.e. religion).

Explain to me how a disabled person is the same as a former convict. I see some very distinct differences (one acted in a criminal manner, the other did not neccessarily do so).

[FRPLG]

I find no parallels between disabled persons, minorities, and/or any other protected class of people who have not chosen their lot in life. Criminals on the other hand are not born criminals. I don't think many disagree that we need to, as a society, treat non-violent criminals who've made the efforts to straighten their lives out properly and give them the opportunities to lead successful and contributing lives. I just have a problem with the gov't requiring it. If I don't want to hire someone or rent to them because they stole $3 in gum when they were 16 then that should be my choice. My judgement of their character however in that case is based on empirical data that reasonably leads one to a rational conclusion. In the case of of currently protected persons the goal was to protect against irrational conclusions based on perceptions and biases.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

You have paid your debt to society when you complete your sentence, you owe nothing more to society as a whole. As an individual, however, I am free to judge you based on past conduct. I wouldn't rent to someone who credit report shows that they are constantly late on payments even if they are not currently in debt (i.e - you've paid your debt in the most literal sense).

Just b/c your not currently in jail doesn't mean your past choices won't affect how you use my property in the future. Sorry, incentivize all you want to, assist people honestly trying to rehabilitate themselves - provide tax breaks to people who rent to them, etc. - or create government housing, but don't force me to risk my economic prospects on someone who has exhibited criminal behavior in the past. Again, on a more basic level, and to me, it is just wrong to extend constitutionally "protected class" status to something that is not an immutable characteristic or an exercise of 1st amendment rights (i.e. religion).

The moral hazard in your argument is that even though they have paid their debt you should be free to discriminate against them and inevitably will. This hidden cost is not beneficial to society or the individual being discriminated against. The world is not limited to just your freedom and exercise of and the question is how do you find balance.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Explain to me how a disabled person is the same as a former convict. I see some very distinct differences (one acted in a criminal manner, the other did not neccessarily do so).

Suppose I don't want to go through the trouble of building accessible entry/stairways/bathrooms and don't want to rent to disabled people and don't want to hire a disabled person due to medical care costs? Well, you can't. The law says you can not discriminate against disabled people AND you must provide them with accessible amenities. If such law can exist on the books then so can these laws proposed in San Fran. There is precedence and the claim of financial harm or the potential of is immaterial.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I find no parallels between disabled persons, minorities, and/or any other protected class of people who have not chosen their lot in life. Criminals on the other hand are not born criminals. I don't think many disagree that we need to, as a society, treat non-violent criminals who've made the efforts to straighten their lives out properly and give them the opportunities to lead successful and contributing lives. I just have a problem with the gov't requiring it. If I don't want to hire someone or rent to them because they stole $3 in gum when they were 16 then that should be my choice. My judgement of their character however in that case is based on empirical data that reasonably leads one to a rational conclusion. In the case of of currently protected persons the goal was to protect against irrational conclusions based on perceptions and biases.

I am not making a correlation between disabled people and criminals, I am pointing out viability and validity of the law proposed by San Fran. As for your take on criminals, they are a product of their environment. If a child is surrounded by crime and criminal activity chances are they will pick up the habit turn to a life of crime (see the Gotti family).

The goal is to rehabilitate these criminals and free form discrimination on the part of society is not going to further this goal.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

I am not making a correlation between disabled people and criminals, I am pointing out viability and validity of the law proposed by San Fran. As for your take on criminals, they are a product of their environment. If a child is surrounded by crime and criminal activity chances are they will pick up the habit turn to a life of crime (see the Gotti family).

The goal is to rehabilitate these criminals and free form discrimination on the part of society is not going to further this goal.

In such a liberal state there should be no need for this law and all the liberal bosses would just be hiring with no standars at all so not to discriminate against anyone. Who cares if a women has a 25 years of perfect child care they should just hire the perv who got out of jail for selling kitty porn.

[Daseal]

Originally Posted by firstdown

In such a liberal state there should be no need for this law and all the liberal bosses would just be hiring with no standars at all so not to discriminate against anyone. Who cares if a women has a 25 years of perfect child care they should just hire the perv who got out of jail for selling kitty porn.

Firstdown... you just made my day at the end of a very long one... Come on meow, you must be doing this on purpose!

[firstdown]

Saden1 when you and your wife have children she could make the perfect child care provider. After all she only lied to polic. LOL

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Firstdown... you just made my day at the end of a very long one... Come on meow, you must be doing this on purpose!

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

In such a liberal state there should be no need for this law and all the liberal bosses would just be hiring with no standars at all so not to discriminate against anyone. Who cares if a women has a 25 years of perfect child care they should just hire the perv who got out of jail for selling kitty porn.

I guess you don't equate liberalism with finding a balance between liberty and equal rights.

Don't forget to raise you head above the sand now and then to breath.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Saden1 when you and your wife have children she could make the perfect child care provider. After all she only lied to polic. LOL

We have no need for her services. My wife will be staying at home to take care of our children and my mother has volunteered to help out.

BTW, did you read the article?

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

I guess you don't equate liberalism with finding a balance between liberty and equal rights.

Don't forget to raise you head above the sand now and then to breath.

I prefer my head in the sand because that means I'm at the beach and not working probably with a cold beer in hand.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

The moral hazard in your argument is that even though they have paid their debt you should be free to discriminate against them and inevitably will. This hidden cost is not beneficial to society or the individual being discriminated against. The world is not limited to just your freedom and exercise of and the question is how do you find balance.

The fundamental difference is that I don't believe, when making economic decisions, discriminating against individuals who have shown themselves in the past to be criminals is, at its core, unreasonable. Very simply, once you have committed a criminal act, rehabilitation starts after the debt is paid. Essentially, "doing your time" is the first step towards proof of rehabilitation, not proof in and of itself. Further, I don't see this as the "moral hazard" you do b/c it is not a given that all will discriminate based on a criminal past - would you? Some will, some won't, Some who would initially, will not later.

Obviously, it is not beneficial to those who are discriminated against - but that is true of any discrimination reasonable or unreasonable. To say it is not beneficial to society is a point we will have to disagree on. My right to say no encourages me to invest in property and open up employment and living opportunities. As a benefit to society, I think this outweighs the cost to society of allowing discrimination against former criminals in employment opportunities or rental issues.

You're right it is a question of balance. In this instance, for this issue, I think the balance is to allow individuals the right to choose to whom they rent or whom to employ and then for the state to create incentives through tax breaks and other financial measures to encourage people to employ/lease to individuals with criminal backgrounds.

Originally Posted by saden1

Suppose I don't want to go through the trouble of building accessible entry/stairways/bathrooms and don't want to rent to disabled people and don't want to hire a disabled person due to medical care costs? Well, you can't. The law says you can not discriminate against disabled people AND you must provide them with accessible amenities. If such law can exist on the books then so can these laws proposed in San Fran. There is precedence and the claim of financial harm or the potential of is immaterial.

Sure, the state can say you can't unreasonably discriminate against someone based on an immutable characteristic and you cannot practice de facto discrimination by failing to provide the proper amenities (although variances can be had). The difference between the disabled person and the former criminal, however, is that (1) generally, the disability did not arise out of a choice or illegal course of conduct (yes, I know this is not true in all cases); and (2) the disabled person cannot "rehabilitate" their character as a former criminal can. The question is not whether society could make such a law, but whether it should - In our society, is it reasonable for one individual to judge and choose whom to employ or to whom to rent property (i.e. to discriminate between applicants) based on a particular applicant's past choices and/or behaviour. I think that it is both reasonable and a benefit to society to allow such choices.

Again, there are so many options short creating yet another constitutionally "protected class" that I just don't see this as something either necessary or appropriate.

[JoeRedskin]

Hey, look, it's training camp and saden1 and I are having a nice lengthy philosophical disagreement (I think). What a shocker. lol.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

We have no need for her services. My wife will be staying at home to take care of our children and my mother has volunteered to help out.

BTW, did you read the article?

"Sex offenders and perpetrators of some violent crimes would not be covered."

Anthony was convicted of three counts of providing false information to the police - not a sex offense or violent crime. Apparently, under the law as proposed, she would not need to disclose that. Sorry, she is a perfect example of why I should be able to say "Nope".