Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look

[illdefined]

dont know why this has to be spread over 3 threads but, what did Brunell's performance last preseason prove? when did preseason ever prove much of anything for us?

it takes more than a half with a handful of plays in preseason games to develop a rhythm. Brunell had most of an entire season to establish his, Ramsey made lots of points last year and this year oh, about 15 minutes. and they were the first 15 minutes of the season. sorry but that doesn't determine shit.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

RF,

Just answer this simple question, what has Ramsey done this preseason to earn the job?

Ok, I lied, answer two questions, who has looked better so far, Ramsey or Brunell?

The writing is on the wall. Ramsey is not the answer right now, he needs work. Meanwhile Brunell has shown that he can be efficient and he doesn't turn the ball over. It would be silly to keep forcing the issue with Ramsey right now. Gibbs probably should have pulled the plug in training camp.

I agree that Ramsey didn't do anything to earn the job in the preseason. I also agree that Brunell looked better in the preseason (albeit against backups).

HOWEVER, according to Joe Gibbs himself, the preseason was not supposed to be a competition between Ramsey and Brunell. According to Joe Gibbs' statements from last season and this past offseason, Ramsey was going to be our starter; not possibly our starter, not probably our starter, but our starter. Basically, Gibbs went back on his word.

[jdlea]

For all those "In Gibbs We Trust" folks...should we trust him like Patrick Ramsey did?

[e16bball]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

RF,

Just answer this simple question, what has Ramsey done this preseason to earn the job?

Ok, I lied, answer two questions, who has looked better so far, Ramsey or Brunell?

The writing is on the wall. Ramsey is not the answer right now, he needs work. Meanwhile Brunell has shown that he can be efficient and he doesn't turn the ball over. It would be silly to keep forcing the issue with Ramsey right now. Gibbs probably should have pulled the plug in training camp.

Brunell looked better in preseason, but Ramsey looked better in the Bears' game. Say what you will about him throwing the first pick and the fumble, he made things happen for us on offense. Brunell simply lacks the ability to make plays. The game on Sunday looked exactly like last season, except he had a little better arm strength. Still dink and dump, and still nothing dynamic whatsoever.

He can probably provide us with consistent mediocrity, but who wants that? Sure, Ramsey makes some bad plays, but I think his good plays outweigh that. We might even lose a game because of Ramsey, but I promise you we will never WIN a game because of Brunell. Why is everyone all of a sudden happy that we are putting in a QB who, basically by his own admission, is there to play "not to lose"? As much as I hate to say it, this team is not good enough to win 9 games with a QB who won't take chances. Our defense is amazing and our running game is solid. But the holes that have looked so big for Portis thus far will start closing up the instant teams realize Brunell is no threat to beat them deep.

I guess it's a question of whether you'd rather beat all the teams we ought to beat with Brunell, and none of the teams on our own plane, or maybe lose a game we could've won with Ramsey, and then come out and get hot and beat some good teams. Quite frankly, I'd MUCH rather see the latter, because it's the only way this team has a shot at making the playoffs, which SHOULD be the goal of every player, every coach, every executive, and every fan. Simply finishing 7-9 is not sufficient. Well, not sufficient for me anyway.

As an addendum, and I believe RamseyFan may have addressed this by now, it was not Ramsey's job to earn. It was Ramsey's job, period. It was Brunell's job to earn, and IMO the only way he could've done that (after last season, which still counts by the way, even if you converted Brunell fans don't want it to) is to play light-out. He hasn't done that. He's played good, safe, efficient ball, which is what you want from your BACKUP. He didn't set the world on fire, and, IMO, certainly didn't do enough to take the job from Ramsey one quarter into the season.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by e16bball

Brunell looked better in preseason, but Ramsey looked better in the Bears' game. Say what you will about him throwing the first pick and the fumble, he made things happen for us on offense. Brunell simply lacks the ability to make plays. The game on Sunday looked exactly like last season, except he had a little better arm strength. Still dink and dump, and still nothing dynamic whatsoever.

He can probably provide us with consistent mediocrity, but who wants that? Sure, Ramsey makes some bad plays, but I think his good plays outweigh that. We might even lose a game because of Ramsey, but I promise you we will never WIN a game because of Brunell. Why is everyone all of a sudden happy that we are putting in a QB who, basically by his own admission, is there to play "not to lose"? As much as I hate to say it, this team is not good enough to win 9 games with a QB who won't take chances. Our defense is amazing and our running game is solid. But the holes that have looked so big for Portis thus far will start closing up the instant teams realize Brunell is no threat to beat them deep.

I guess it's a question of whether you'd rather beat all the teams we ought to beat with Brunell, and none of the teams on our own plane, or maybe lose a game we could've won with Ramsey, and then come out and get hot and beat some good teams. Quite frankly, I'd MUCH rather see the latter, because it's the only way this team has a shot at making the playoffs, which SHOULD be the goal of every player, every coach, every executive, and every fan. Simply finishing 7-9 is not sufficient. Well, not sufficient for me anyway.

As an addendum, and I believe RamseyFan may have addressed this by now, it was not Ramsey's job to earn. It was Ramsey's job, period. It was Brunell's job to earn, and IMO the only way he could've done that (after last season, which still counts by the way, even if you converted Brunell fans don't want it to) is to play light-out. He hasn't done that. He's played good, safe, efficient ball, which is what you want from your BACKUP. He didn't set the world on fire, and, IMO, certainly didn't do enough to take the job from Ramsey one quarter into the season.

An excellent post.

[skinsfan0201]

agreed 100%! Thanks for speaking up with a quality opinion!!!!!!!!

[dblanch66]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Ok, I let myself dwell on this whole thing for a few hours before making a post. Here's my take.

First let me preface this by saying I like Ramsey and I was really hoping for him to be the man this season. I think he's a talented QB and still has a bright future in this league.

The only thing I ask is that you clear your mind for a moment and think about this objectively. I know as fans we get very emotional and we sometimes get attached to players, whether they're good players or not. But in the end, all that matters is winning football games, and that's what Coach Gibbs is trying to do here. He's not trying to play games, he's not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, he's trying to win games, period, end of discussion.

Ok, here's my view on the change. This idea that Ramsey didn't have a fair shot this year is false. He had the commitment of the staff since the 2004 season ended. He received the majority of the offseason work as the starter, and that carried over into training camp where he took 90% of the snaps in practice. He was given 4 preseason games to stake his claim as the starter. Despite some very shaky performances, Gibbs didn't waver, he stuck with Ramsey when he very easily could have slipped Brunell in there for a start or two.

Can anyone honestly say that based on what we saw from Ramsey this preseason, that he earned the starting job. Before you answer, just think about that a moment. Did he really earn the starting job? If you say yes, please explain what he did this preseason to earn the job. I'd love to hear it.

He threw 4 INTs against 2 TDs in the preseason with a QB rating of 65, and the INTs he threw were the kind of INTs that made you say "Huh? What was he thinking?"

Meanwhile, Brunell's play in the preseason was efficient and turnover free with a QB rating just over 85. Yes it was against backups, but there was a definite improvement in his game, that can't be denied. His trademark accuracy was back, his passes showed zip, he was mobile and moving around in the pocket, and in general he seemed to have a much better feel and control of this offense. Ramsey on the other hand never looked settled or in control.

Perhaps in the end, the biggest mistake Gibbs made was sticking by Ramsey too long this preseason. Or perhaps it goes back further than that, he probably should have opened up the QB competition heading into training camp and let the best man win.

The thing that's concerned me about Ramsey is he's actually looked worse so far this year than he did at the end of last year. Perhaps now we can see why Gibbs ran such a scaled back offense last year with him in there. Perhaps that's why all we saw Ramsey throw were short dink and dunks, maybe that's all he could handle. Fast forward to this year, Gibbs opened up the playbook and look what's happened. Ramsey has the happy feet again, he's holding on to the ball too long, he's indecisive, he's throwing INTs and coughing the ball up when hit. Those are signs of a QB who's not comfortable and doesn't have a firm grip on the offense.

Again, try to take the emotion out of this. Ramsey is still a work in progress, let's face it. Will he improve with time, yeah maybe he will. But after what happened last year, I don't think Gibbs is willing to make the same mistake of sticking with a struggling QB too long.

This team has the elements to be a playoff team this year. Portis looks poised for a big year, and Betts adds a great 1-2 punch to the running attack. The offensive line is much improved over a year ago. We have speed and playmaking ability at the WR position. And needless to say the defense is lights out as expected. The missing element? Stability and efficiency at the QB position, something that Ramsey can't give us right now. You might say, but what did Ramsey do yesterday to lose the job? He shouldn't lose the job due to injury. I answer with, so we should just ignore the 2 fumbles and 1 INT in 3 series worth of work? That sure didn't help his case, that's for sure.

I'll say it again, I like Ramsey, I really do. I think he's got a good future in this league, but right now Brunell appears to be the better option at QB. Put last year out of your mind with Brunell and just focus on what we've seen from him in 2005. He's played well and gives us the best chance to win right now.

I give Gibbs credit for having the guts to make a very difficult decision, but in the end could prove to be a very smart one.

Very well said, Matty. Agree on all points.

[illdefined]

yup, you nailed it e16. Brunell is like a prevent defense, "lets not lose". all that safe approach proved last season was assure we lost close games, but the last thing we need is more of last season..

[SmootSmack]

Anyone agree with me that I wish it was next Monday night already?

I can't keep up with all these posts. You all are going to keep me from getting any work during the day or any sleep at night.

[JWsleep]

Good post, Matty.

Question: why is Gibbs so shaky on PR? He's been this way from day one. He's seen something he does not like. He's hoped it would change. It has not happened yet. My guess is it's his decision-making. He misreads Defenses and it causes TOs, either by INT or sack/fumble. My guess is that he named PR the starter in hopes that he would improve by getting the majority of snaps in preseason and practice. Haven't seen real improvment yet, IMO. Yes, I know that Ramsey hits a decent number of passes, and his yardage has been good. But it always takes a long time for him to read where the open guy is. His strong arm saves him lots of times, but in crucial moments, a blitz comes, and whamo, TO.

Brunnell SUCKED ASS last year, no doubt about it. But if, and this is a MAJOR if, he is healthy, he will benefit from the improved O-line and open playbook more than Ramsey will, right now. And he can beat the blitz better, which is what counts now. I am absolutely NOT convinced that Brunnell is some magically changed man. But I can see Matty's point here.

We'll see how this awkward experiment turns out!

[illdefined]

it's more than probable Gibbs just holds a great deal of pride in choosing his own team leader. Ramsey was always the red-headed stepchild, and this 20 minute "start" just proves he doesn't really want to build with him. as if Campbell wasn't proof enough.

[LRT]

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

[offiss]

Originally Posted by jdlea

For all those "In Gibbs We Trust" folks...should we trust him like Patrick Ramsey did?

LOL!

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by LRT

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

Great post, LRT.

And as for all of this, I don't trust Gibbs, he lied to us, he's a bad man--if Ramsey had taken this opportunity by the balls, we wouldn't be here. He had all of camp as the #1 and never got comfortable, Gibbs never said, Pat is our starter, no matter how he plays. Gibbs sees him in practice, reviews the film, calls the plays, and has experience judging and molding QBs. And he's not the only one to see that Pat hasn't exactly lit things up around here. So this isn't completely out of the blue.

Did ya'll really feel so comfortable with Ramsey? I like the guy, but I know I didn't. I'm not comfortable with Brunnell either, to tell the truth. The main problem here is that neither inspires confidence. But in this preseason, things felt more stable with Brunnell, IMO. That's what created the initial talk of a QB controversy--it wasn't created by Gibbs. Pat did not step up. He may yet one day. But he's going to sit first. Hopefully, it's a Mark Rypien situation--he sits, and gets back in and rocks. We'll see.

[Joe Knows...]

Matty has my opinoin on it, and so does LRT...

Originally Posted by LRT

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

This is quoted for being the best and most level headed post I've read all night.

Ramsey's problem is the mistakes he does make can cost us the ball game. You don't win games by creating turn overs. Turn Overs give the game away. And unfortunately for my main man, Ramsey, he makes way too many of them.

As for those who are asking why has Ramsey lost his confidence and looks as uncomfortable as he does, that's about to be covered in a post I made in another thread that I will re-post here....