Tom "Iceman" Brady

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Redskin

Yea Brady is without a doubt a better leader then Manning, IMO thats really what has been holding Manning back from winning big. Manning has one good game after the last two he played where he threw what 7 picks? Brady was coaching other players out there and is striving a team to victory. Look what Brady has to work with compared to Manning with his 2 pro bowl recivers and Clark. No comparison.

They said last night that the Colts have 7 O players going to the pro Bowl. Both QB's played great last night and both threw a pick but Brady's came when he had no chance to make up for the mistake. This argument can go on for ever because one has the stats and the other has the rings which makes the argument on both sides. I still think Manning has to win a SB to back his stats. There was a reason Manning could not watch that final drive of the game because he knows that Brady has done it before but it was not his day.

[The Huddle]

Well, well, what do you know? Manning has taken his first step toward making all those big stats actually mean something in this debate. I’ve got to give credit where credit is due- I have stated that I believe pressure adversely affects Manning. Clearly that was not the case yesterday. Even after costing his team seven points, he pulled himself together and engineered the biggest comeback in conference championship game history. He was outstanding. Hu-rah.

Now, he’s one big game, one big win, from filling in that aching hole in his heart and on his resume. The Colts are a pretty solid favorite and, given the way their defense is playing, it would appear this isn’t asking too much. We shall see.

As for Brady, he remains the league’s best big game quarterback- and thus the best quarterback, period. No, he didn’t get it done yesterday. Yes, he failed in the clutch yesterday when attempting to lead his team downfield to a touchdown in the closing seconds. However, it is a tribute to just how accomplished Brady has become in these situations that despite the odds, most folks probably half-expected him to pull another one out anyway. He’s still not yet 30. In six seasons as a starter, he's led his team to three titles and to the brink of a fourth. He’ll be back.

But back to Manning. As great as he was yesterday, he isn’t there yet. One game can’t make up for all of his past failings, or erase Brady’s success in the same situations over the past 6 years. Again, he’s taken a solid step toward proving his supporters right, toward making the case that he, not Brady, is the game’s best QB- I can't deny that and won't attempt to for ego's sake. He can take another step against the Bears, and then this debate will get a lot more interesting.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think he slid to the 2nd round either. He just can't crack the line-up. I know he was playing on teams. I'm sure Jackson will get in the lineup more next year. Perhaps NE will realize they have a great QB and go out and get a WR in free agency. Or, and this is just my opinion, but perhaps NE just doesn't put a lot of value on WR's.

Chad Jackson is just following in the line of many illustrious Florida Gator WRs drafted in the first two rounds:

Ricky Nattiel, Taylor Jacobs, Ike Hilliard, Jacquez Green, Travis Taylor, Jabar Gaffney, and the "real" Reche Caldwell, who came through with two HUGE drops in last night's championship game. Darrell Jackson (2000, 3rd round) is the only Gator receiver I can recall over the past 20 years who has become a legit #1 receiver in the NFL.

Belichik and Pioli got exactly what they deserved - they didn't pay Deion Branch, and decided that a posse of former Gator receivers could replace him.

[wilsowilso]

I'm pretty sure Chad Jackson really messed up his hamstring and missed the entire preseason as well as the begining of the season because of it. Then he reinjured it and basically it screwed up his whole rookie year. I mean I know he is a Florida receiver, but I think he might be pretty good for them. He had three td's in limited action.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by gabe1984

I strongly disagree with this post. Manning is an excellent leader. He's the one who calls the plays, reads the defenses, audibles out of plays at the line of scrimmage, he is CONSTANTLY communicating with his team when he is on the field. Brady has a mastermind coach in Bellichick telling him what to do. And I don't want to take away from Dungee, but Mannning is the one who run's the offense, he gets to make a lot of big decisions that most QBs don't get to make.
Tom Brady is coaching players out there? Of course he's going to have to give brand new receivers some advice, what quarterback wouldn't do that, I mean, they're in a brand new system.
Ok, Manning has two great receivers, but in my opinion, until this year, Brady is the one who's team has been loaded with weapons. Every year they won the superbowl, he's had one of the BEST defenses in the league, why Manning's defenses have been average to below average. Brady's offensive line has always outplayed Manning's in past battles, plus it's not like Brady has had slouches at receiver in the past until this year. Plus, their TE Watson is just as good as Clark is.
Back to the defense again, just think about how the Pat's defenses were loaded with great players: Seymore, Bruschi, Harrison, Vrabel, McGinnest, and Law. See, once the Pat's dont have those players and the talent level overall is more even, COLTS WIN!
I guess my bottom line is that Tom Brady has been instrumental in winning 3 superbowls, but not anymore instrumental than the Pat's stingy defenses and great coaching. And as proved yesterday and last year in the Bronco's loss in the playoffs, when they don't have Charlie Weiss, Romeo Cornell, Ty Law, McGinnest, Harrison, Branch and Givens, Tom Brady is mortal.

Great post.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Brady has more poise than Manning. I value that more than anything else. Yes, even more than stats!

How do you know he has more poise? Is your poise-o-meter flying off the charts or something? What's your reasoning?

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

How do you know he has more poise? Is your poise-o-meter flying off the charts or something? What's your reasoning?

Why yes, my poise-o-meter is flying off the charts.

Anyways, you said it yourself: Brady moves in the pocket better. That is just a result of not being rattled as easily as Manning. Not rattled as easily = more poise.

And, I'm sure that you'll come with some sorta stat that PROVES Manning is more poised. I just don't care for stats that much -- they're misleading (a poor way to prove an argument, IMO).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Huddle

Well, well, what do you know? Manning has taken his first step toward making all those big stats actually mean something in this debate. I’ve got to give credit where credit is due- I have stated that I believe pressure adversely affects Manning. Clearly that was not the case yesterday. Even after costing his team seven points, he pulled himself together and engineered the biggest comeback in conference championship game history. He was outstanding. Hu-rah.

Now, he’s one big game, one big win, from filling in that aching hole in his heart and on his resume. The Colts are a pretty solid favorite and, given the way their defense is playing, it would appear this isn’t asking too much. We shall see.

As for Brady, he remains the league’s best big game quarterback- and thus the best quarterback, period. No, he didn’t get it done yesterday. Yes, he failed in the clutch yesterday when attempting to lead his team downfield to a touchdown in the closing seconds. However, it is a tribute to just how accomplished Brady has become in these situations that despite the odds, most folks probably half-expected him to pull another one out anyway. He’s still not yet 30. In six seasons as a starter, he's led his team to three titles and to the brink of a fourth. He’ll be back.

But back to Manning. As great as he was yesterday, he isn’t there yet. One game can’t make up for all of his past failings, or erase Brady’s success in the same situations over the past 6 years. Again, he’s taken a solid step toward proving his supporters right, toward making the case that he, not Brady, is the game’s best QB- I can't deny that and won't attempt to for ego's sake. He can take another step against the Bears, and then this debate will get a lot more interesting.

I wouldn't say Brady failed yesterday, he was very efficient. No QB is going to drive 80 yards for a TD in a minute without a complete defensive breakdown (unless it's Brady Quinn vs. UCLA...but thats college), so the game was all but over when the Patriot return only reached the 20.

Brady's unit put up 27 points, which to me demonstrates a consistent effort throughout the game. He's a good quarterback.

On the same note, we knew that it was only a matter of time til the Patriots lost to the Colts in January. In the two prior playoff meetings, everything broke the Patriots way, much like it did in the first half of last night's game. You have the fumble that could have been recovered by the Colts, but by a stroke of luck the Patriots got a TD on it. You had Ellis Hobbs and Asante Samuel looking more like Deion Sanders and Darrell Green, and you had Harrison and Wayne playing like a pair of High School scrubs with Parkinsons. That is the Patriots were blitzing a bunch, the Colts were picking it up and giving Manning 1 v 1 situations on the outside, in which he'd make the throw and Harrison/Wayne would either play it poorly, drop it, or trip over their own feet.

But in the second half, something unprecidented happened. Things actually started going AGAINST the Patriots in the playoffs! The Colts recovered a fumble for a TD in the same lucky fashion that the Pats did. All of a sudden Harrison and Wayne started playing like NFL recievers. The Patriot DBs couldn't cover anyone. Belichick looked baffled on the sideline. How dare someone actually make them play a second half?! Brady even missed a wide open Caldwell which is something you never see. Of course Caldwell did drop it, but I think its safe to say he would have caught it if Brady got it to him right away.

In this bizarre game, Brady and Manning seemed like the only two constants throughout. They played up to each others level and I think this game was decided by a bunch of other factors.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Why yes, my poise-o-meter is flying off the charts.

Anyways, you said it yourself: Brady moves in the pocket better. That is just a result of not being rattled as easily as Manning. Not rattled as easily = more poise.

And, I'm sure that you'll come with some sorta stat that PROVES Manning is more poised. I just don't care for stats that much -- they're misleading (a poor way to prove an argument, IMO).

Well, what the stats show is whether or not Brady is more poised, he doesn't get it done quite as well as Manning does.

Stats only mislead people who don't understand how to use them correctly.

But yeah, I think Brady has great pocket presence. He's just a tough guy to get to for the sack. Manning also has great pocket presence, but he likes to throw the ball quicker rather than move all over.

I have no idea who has more poise. It's an intangible. Either way, if Brady WAS in fact more poised, it doesn't help him complete more passes than Manning, so it's moot.

All we can see is the total package. You can't break these guys down into categories and compare one vs. the other, these skills overlap and compensate for one another. Stats can't show who has more poise or better leadership. They can only show who is giving the best results.

[GTripp0012]

I think that ultimately, successful quarterbacks must be able to complete a high percentage of their passes. It's really all they can control. Brady certainly does this well, but Manning does it better.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

[stats] can only show who is giving the best results.

I disagree here. Stats can't show who is giving the best results, because those stats depend on the rest of the team. For example, the receivers, the o-line, the defense, etc. We can't measure the intangibles (i.e.: leadership and poise) -- which are NOT dependent on the rest of the team -- so we're left to our own intuition. My intuition tells me that Brady has more poise. You don't have a stat for it, so you disregard it. For shame.

[gabe1984]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Great post.

thank you

[wilsowilso]

This thread needs to go to bed now. It's very sleepy. Hard to argue when everyone has so much firepower one way or the other. Good luck to Manning in the Super Bowl.

[The Huddle]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

This thread needs to go to bed now. It's very sleepy. Hard to argue when everyone has so much firepower one way or the other. Good luck to Manning in the Super Bowl.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've said my piece and would agree that it's at least time to put this thing into deep freeze and possibly revisit it later. Excellent points made on both sides about two great QBs. Nobody seems ready to concede anything anytime soon, but Brady's season is over and Manning has the stage to himself now.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by The Huddle

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've said my piece and would agree that it's at least time to put this thing into deep freeze and possibly revisit it later. Excellent points made on both sides about two great QBs. Nobody seems ready to concede anything anytime soon, but Brady's season is over and Manning has the stage to himself now.

I think you said it best: "this thread farts cobwebs" ... lol, great mental picture.