Obama Care

[saden1]

Clearly you don't understand the question. When I say "all other things being equal" I mean that the two jobs are otherwise equal in their perks, their distance from your home, the health and vacation benefits they're offering -- the two jobs offers are indentical, but one pays more than the other. Which job would you choose? And are you being greedy by taking the higher paying job?

I take it I answered your question satisfactorily then?

From your link: "Greed: 1. Excessively desirous of acquiring OR POSSESSING, especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves."

If you're trying to save money by choosing a less expensive product, aren't you trying to possess more wealth? The object, in the end, is to have as much money left over after the purchase as possible, no? Again, greed = possessing more than you deserve -- think real hard here, Saden.

If there has ever been bastardization and degeneration of a word this would be a great candidate. Choosing a product over another because it is cheaper is not an example greed. Buying both products at the same time when you only needs one is. You would be better served using the word frugal instead of greedy.

Saden, you really ought to endeavor to do two things: spend more time actually reading the links you provide, and start using a dictionary. Your Enron example doesn't fit what we're talking about here. Check the definiton of fraud.

"1. Fraud: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain."

You say that making as much money as possible is fine, but not at the expense of your customers, employees, and shareholders. No kidding. One constitutes fraud, the other does not.

You are right in that their conduct was fraudulent but wrong in that you fail to realize what motivated this fraud (hint, greed). Greed is a prerequisite for fraud (absent psychological defects of course). I challenge you to give me an example of fraud absent greed.

That's like saying studying hard in college and working diligently for a higher paying job is fine but robbing banks is not. That's why the Enron Wiki link does nothing to prove your point. Enron engaged in accounting fraud which is against the law.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

GhettoDogAllStars may not have answered your questions but I will. First, your "questions" tend to be simplistic and stupid in nature. Second, they tend to be leading questions but not the good kind. Finally, they tend to be very insulting to sensibility.


If all things are equal why does one job pay more than the other? Perhaps one requires you to be away from your family more often? Maybe it will but a strain on your marriage? Maybe you're being too short sighted to see that you may lose your family at the expense of few more bucks and a shiny new boat?

WTF kind of question is this and what does it have to do with greed? I don't believe you understand what the word greedy means.

Your best question so far but a very stupid question nonetheless. Making as much money as possible is perfectly fine, making as much money as possible at the expense of your customers, employees and shareholders is not.



You might want to spend more time practicing "getting to the root" of problems because this attempt is TT FAIL.

Beam you got a shiny new boat and have not invited me to go fishing? I only live 20 to 30 minutes away and I'll won't be greedy and I'll chip in for gas, bait, and beer. Heck, I'll even bring us both lunch but I can only buy one slice of each kind of meat because Saden says if I buy two of the same things then its greedy.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

You say that making as much money as possible is fine, but not at the expense of your customers, employees, and shareholders. No kidding. One constitutes fraud [not greed], the other does not. ... That's why the Enron Wiki link does nothing to prove your point [as an example of greed]. Enron engaged in accounting fraud which is against the law [but did not engage in corporate greed].

Saden answered it perfectly, but I'll elaborate a little.

You're basically saying Enron was not greedy, because they were fraudulent. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be greedy and fraudulent at the same time. And, like Saden said, fraud is almost always motivated by greed.

I fail to see how if something is illegal then it cannot be greedy. That makes absolutely no sense. That's why I gave up explaining this to Firstdown. You surprise me, because I never thought you'd use the same ridiculous reasoning.

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

That's why philisophically, I don't accept that 'greed' or even 'selfishness' is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm probably misunderstanding you (and the word "philosophically" does not change anything), but if not then I feel very bad for you. I think Saden was right -- you don't understand what greed is.

[Beemnseven]

Gentlemen, if you cannot grasp the point I'm trying to make -- that there is no difference between what you call "corporate greed" and people doing whatever they can to better their position in life, outside of fraud and stealing from other people, then I don't know what else I can say.

Neither of you have answered my question -- what's the difference between an evil, vile, big business doing everything it can to enhance its bottom line and an individual doing everything he or she can to collect and save as much wealth as possible? How is one greed and the other not?

I'll answer, since neither of you will. Both are examples of greed. In one degree or another, greed exists in all of us. So yes, Enron was greedy. But so are you and me, and everyone else striving for a better life, for something more than we already have. But when you cross the line into cheating, stealing or defrauding others then that's something different.

That's why, again, I don't think greed is a bad thing.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Beam you got a shiny new boat and have not invited me to go fishing? I only live 20 to 30 minutes away and I'll won't be greedy and I'll chip in for gas, bait, and beer. Heck, I'll even bring us both lunch but I can only buy one slice of each kind of meat because Saden says if I buy two of the same things then its greedy.

Well, I'm not there yet. I have lots more hard work to do before I can get a boat. When that day comes we'll get together and be greedy with more beer than we possibly deserve.

[MTK]

Everyone is greedy to a degree, not denying that. Hell a certain amount of greed is healthy. But greed is taken to entirely new levels with examples like Enron. That's greed at it's very worst.

[CRedskinsRule]

Can someone explain why Criminal Corporate Greed, as exemplified by Enron, is worse than an entire generation (ours) "stealing" our children's future (back to the 11TRILLION dollar debt number), which is somehow seen as the act of a benevolent government? Both parties have created this debt, and by extension all of us who have voted these people in have. We are the "shareholders" who are allowing this to happen.

If Enron was evil, then 11trillion dollar debt is too.
-- this is an emotional, not logical appeal. I know it is not an apple to apple comparison, but can anyone really wrap their mind around a number like 11trillion. Enron, and all the other corporate scandals, they hit home, the numbers make sense and there are personalities attached to each theft. But 11 trillion, that doesn't mean anything really, and the faces attached are more likely to be starving kids being fed or politicians just trying to help their community, then some evil or "greedy" corporate suit. But which one will have the longer negative affect on the United States?

ok done

atleast for now.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Saden answered it perfectly, but I'll elaborate a little.

You're basically saying Enron was not greedy, because they were fraudulent. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be greedy and fraudulent at the same time. And, like Saden said, fraud is almost always motivated by greed.

I fail to see how if something is illegal then it cannot be greedy. That makes absolutely no sense. That's why I gave up explaining this to Firstdown. You surprise me, because I never thought you'd use the same ridiculous reasoning.



I'm probably misunderstanding you (and the word "philosophically" does not change anything), but if not then I feel very bad for you. I think Saden was right -- you don't understand what greed is.

GDA, I think you misunderstood my point. I agree that when corporations do stuff like that it is in alot of cases greed. My point was that what they were doing was already against the law. If people are set out to rip people off (get greedy) it does not matter if they work for a corporation or the goverment its going to happen. In either case we have laws against such acts. Madoff was a greedy old man and did not give a crap that he was ripping off people and now he is paying the price. You could also say congress is full of people who are greedy and will take any money from who ever throws it there way and then vote for bills which they really do not support just because of the money.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Can someone explain why Criminal Corporate Greed, as exemplified by Enron, is worse than an entire generation (ours) "stealing" our children's future (back to the 11TRILLION dollar debt number), which is somehow seen as the act of a benevolent government? Both parties have created this debt, and by extension all of us who have voted these people in have. We are the "shareholders" who are allowing this to happen.

If Enron was evil, then 11trillion dollar debt is too.
-- this is an emotional, not logical appeal. I know it is not an apple to apple comparison, but can anyone really wrap their mind around a number like 11trillion. Enron, and all the other corporate scandals, they hit home, the numbers make sense and there are personalities attached to each theft. But 11 trillion, that doesn't mean anything really, and the faces attached are more likely to be starving kids being fed or politicians just trying to help their community, then some evil or "greedy" corporate suit. But which one will have the longer negative affect on the United States?

ok done

atleast for now.

There is not a big difference to me and our large national dept is a product of congress unwilling to cut cost do to the fact they are scared it will cost them their job. When was the last time we had someone running for office that actually stood up and talked about all the cuts that need to be made. I'm sure there are some and McCain did to a point but most just talk about more goverment programs as did McCain.

[MTK]

On the subject of Enron anyone see the documentary 'The Smartest Guys in the Room'?

Pretty fascinating look at that trainwreck.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

On the subject of Enron anyone see the documentary 'The Smartest Guys in the Room'?

Pretty fascinating look at that trainwreck.

One of Mark Cuban's finest films. Those guys were something else for sure

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Gentlemen, if you cannot grasp the point I'm trying to make -- that there is no difference between what you call "corporate greed" and people doing whatever they can to better their position in life, outside of fraud and stealing from other people, then I don't know what else I can say.

There is no difference between corporate greed and individual greed. However, "people doing whatever they can to better their position in life," is NOT greed. Greed lies in excess. So, if you excessively try to better your life, more than you need or deserve -- and outside the realm of moderation -- than you are greedy.

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Neither of you have answered my question -- what's the difference between an evil, vile, big business doing everything it can to enhance its bottom line and an individual doing everything he or she can to collect and save as much wealth as possible? How is one greed and the other not?

Haha. Nice of you to throw in the "evil, vile, big business" remark, because I *must* think *all* businesses are evil and vile? And, of course making money at all is greedy and selfish. LMFAO.

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I'll answer, since neither of you will. Both are examples of greed. In one degree or another, greed exists in all of us. So yes, Enron was greedy. But so are you and me, and everyone else striving for a better life, for something more than we already have. But when you cross the line into cheating, stealing or defrauding others then that's something different.

That's why, again, I don't think greed is a bad thing.

You're so wrong. Striving for a better life is not greedy. Greed is about excess -- not about wanting. It is possible to want, and not be greedy. When you're hungry and you want something to eat, you must be greedy right? LOL.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by firstdown

There is not a big difference to me and our large national debt is a product of congress unwilling to cut cost do to the fact they are scared it will cost them their job. When was the last time we had someone running for office that actually stood up and talked about all the cuts that need to be made. I'm sure there are some and McCain did to a point but most just talk about more goverment programs as did McCain.

Sounds like the same issue with the flawed corporate model. More support for your theory CRR.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Sounds like the same issue with the flawed corporate model. More support for your theory CRR.

That makes no sense. I'd say a corporate mgr would do the opposite and cut cost to save their job. Wouldn't cost over run cost them money?

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by firstdown

That makes no sense. I'd say a corporate mgr would do the opposite and cut cost to save their job. Wouldn't cost over run cost them money?

My point is that (most) people are more concerned with keeping their job, than doing what is right -- corporate executives and congressmen alike.

Make sense now?