All things Middle East related

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

...

Yes there is, the side that is simply fighting for their existence, not the side that kidnaps and murders schoolboys and indiscriminately launches rockets into civilian cities. Israel uses very targeted airstrikes to avoid civilian casualties, they call cell phones and alert people to leave, they then fire a dummy "soft" bomb that lets the people in the target know a strike is imminent, and then they finally strike. ...

Hey Baltimore, we are launching concentrated airstrikes that are going to lay waste to the triangulated area of Howard/MLK Blvd and Green Street. You have 15 minutes to evacuate Md Gen Hospital, the shops, the schools, and all the housing. If you can't, then it's your fault that there are so many of you in that area (even though we have blockaded the exits). Don't worry, the first bomb is fake so just ignore it when it hits.

Keep in mind that Gaza has 3 times the population of Baltimore. Where are these people that have so been notified supposed to go. How about give them an iron dome system, and that way when the incoming missiles approach they know they are safe? Again, how many Israelis were killed by Hamas infiltrators or rockets? How many Palestinian non-combatants were killed by IDF airstrikes? How many new children have developed a life long hatred to kill the Israelis who were responsible for the deaths of their sisters or mothers? How many suicide bombers has Israeli attacks spoon fed new reasons to hate and distrust them?

You won't answer those numbers even though the deaths and wounded comparison is as simple as saying Ok Google How many deaths in Gaza from Israeli air strikes, and comparing that too Ok Google How many deaths in Israeli

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

The adults that VOLUNTEERED for military service. The military isn't a social program, it's a fighting force.

So your stance is to stand back and watch tens of thousands get slaughtered/beheaded/crucified when we have the capability to stop it? If that's your stance it's disgusting.

How would you feel if IS was running rampant through NoVA and the only people that could stop them decided it "wasn't worth it" to end mass genocide.

then why aren't you in africa right now? or syria? or the ukraine? or dealing with the hidden protests in saudi arabia?

if we want to stop all the bad situations and genocides in the world, we need to adds millions of soldiers and trillions to the budget. there's already enough people talking a big game, what's your magic plan for achieving it? reinstating the draft? 80% tax rates? where's your outrage about the world's failure to contain ebola or aids or the genocide in sudan? we could stop that too, but i guess when it's happening in africa it doesn't count. you're lack of outrage makes me sick.

and the next time ISIS is rampaging down K street, please be sure to let me know.

[That Guy]

SS, it's really funny that you're defending a state founded on a terrorist bombing campaign and don't understand why the people that were made homeless/landless when the brits pulled out (after the americans decided to give away their land without bothering to talk to them) might be a little peeved...

not that hamas/plo/etc etc are in any way blameless, but they aren't exactly well treated 1st first world citizens in the tiny plot of land they've been relegated to.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by indiscriminate airstrikes of the IDF. Thousands more wounded. Many innocent children and women killed while in refuge. How many Israeli's have lost there lives in the ongoing rocket attacks? How many innocents? I'll let you look it up and see if you are willing to post the comparison numbers, and still say there is no moral equivalence. I will go further, what Israel has done to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip is as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jews. Mass exterminations are mass exterminations. Just because a bomb falls from a fighter jet doesn't make the death the child suffers any less brutal than the beheading of the reporter.

As I already stated, the Israeli airstrikes are not "indiscriminate", they are as precise as our own. The Palestinian people's deaths are attributable to Hamas and the other Muslim terrorist organizations that know they cannot defeat Israel in a war, so they put innocent Palestinians in danger.... strategically and purposefully.

You are so far off-base claiming "what Israel has done to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip is as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jews." This is incredibly disrespectful to the memories of those butchered in the Holocaust and those that lost their lives fighting for their freedom. A quick search through wiki shows a hell of a lot of terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians and an Israeli response. There are thousands killed on both sides of the conflict, but I sure a hell didn't find anywhere that Israelis were sending millions of Palestinians to concentration camps and ovens.

I said it earlier, the Gaza strip can be compared to the land bordered by DC, Baltimore, Route 29 to the north, Route 295 to the south. (139 sq. miles for the record) Baltimore has a population of 600K approx. same with DC, the Gaza Strip has a population of 1.8 Million. Imagine dropping bombs from the air everyday over that stretch of land, with the population of DC, Baltimore, and a clone of Baltimore. Further, imagine setting up blockades, and closing all borders and making those 1.8 million people live only off of the land between DC and Baltimore, or else allowing things only at your whim. Imagine if the inhabitants of Philadelphia set up air defenses, had huge military outposts to prevent you from leaving that small area that is your home. Imagine that the leaders of Philly could strike you with impunity because they had NY keeping the rest of the world away. You might feel the need to launch rockets, even if futile. You might dig tunnels or do whatever you can to get rid of those Philly SOB's.

Just because it's not one man taking another man's life makes it no less brutal. Just because you don't see the bombs tearing at a child's chest or a father or mother's arms makes it no less real to those who are living under the fear.

Hold on, the Israelis don't stop Palestinians from leaving Gaza, there is a border with Egypt that isn't controlled by Israel. The Israelis are protecting themselves from groups within Gaza (again Hamas, etc.) that want to "wipe them off the face of the earth" and liken them to "apes and pigs".

In 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza and allowed them self rule. They also have provided means to build a successful society, but Hamas and other outsiders, hell bent on Israel's destruction, buy rockets, build tunnels with tons & tons of concrete, and the leaders skim millions for themselves. Israel and the U.S. have pumped billions of dollars into supporting the Palestinian people in Gaza.

I hate how people defend Israel and disregard their fundamental beliefs (and the actions of slaughter of the palestinians that flows from it) while yet call the islamists who are slaughtering far fewer people by tally for the same basic beliefs held by Israeli's.

I strongly suggest you read up on the history of this conflict.
Anti-Semitic History Is Greatest Obstacle to Peace for Israel, Palestinians - US News

The Palestinians have been offered everything they've wanted and more....all they have to do is accept Israel's right to EXIST....and they won't.

Since 1947 approximately 46K Muslim-Arab deaths are attributed to the conflict with Israel. 11,000 of these were during Israel's War of Independence. Since 1950, just in the Middle East, Muslims have killed over 1.65M other Muslims.

[CRedskinsRule]

And yet you still have not said how many deaths and wounded each on the two sides in the past 2 months of this onslaught. You spout us/Israeli lines like they are manna from heaven but the reality on the ground is that thousands of Palestinians have been wounded maimed and killed in these past weeks. If you think that they should just up and leave their homes and go to Egypt that is the height naivety. If your home was attacked would you just up and leave or would you support those who are fighting to protect it.
Why should they accept Israels right to exist? I ask in all seriousness. Did it exist before the UN decreed it? Was there a referendum of the local councils where all parties had an even stake and state and national borders were agreed to in advance? Or has the Palestinian land slowly been shrunk as Israeli control grew?

Would Israel exist as a natural state if the us withdrew its support and allowed boundaries to be re-established based on pre 1947 history?

[That Guy]

part of the problem is that the previous US interventions have caused some of the current problems too.

the US and brits knocked over a democracy in iran in the 50s and installed a dictator that was willing to abuse human rights and suppress opposition and stay in power (and we supported him, where's the outrage over that, or US "pay for toture" black sites?). he got overthrown, guy we didn't like came to power (though if we stayed out in the 50s, this probably wouldn't be the case).

fast forward, being afraid of iran's growing power, we decided to give saddam billions in weapons and military command and control systems to help keep them in check. also supporting another dictator that wasn't afraid to commit genocide on his own people.

fast forward again, we spent a LOT more money removing those weapons and systems to put a sectarian leader in place that spent a lot of time removing sunni voices from power... and now you've got an ISIS army formed in syria's war that's gained a lot of traction due to Nouri al-Maliki's actions.

it's kind of like 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. and every time americans hit the ground, jihadii's from far and wide start flooding in to get their shots off. we're like a magnet for chaos. and we're doing it with your kids money too, cause none of this has been paid for yet.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

As I already stated, the Israeli airstrikes are not "indiscriminate", they are as precise as our own.

Is that why Israel used cluster bombs for the longest while?





Precise my ass.

[That Guy]

you know smart bombs are only smart 40-60% of the time right?

despite the popular misconception, "smart" weapons miss all the time. like when we had 300+ taliban prisoners in afghanistan that broke lose and were hiding in a single building inside a palace (old fortress) compound. 6 airstrikes later, their single building was fine, but we managed to blow up a kurdish tank and a bunch of kurds in the attempt.

Battle of Qala-i-Jangi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


there are literally a million other examples. in armed conflicts, the wrong people get dead quite regularly. bad intel, miscommunication, ordinance landing off target. s#$% happens.


also if you had done any research, you'd know that egypt closed their border with palestine for over a year, and before that it was only open for 4 hours a day and only letting in 500-1000 a day max. so that's not a valid option.

[Chico23231]

kinda shocked how people are anti israel in this latest escalation. Hamas senior official just yesterday confirmed that someone in their orgainization kidnapped these 3 boys and killed them. thats what started this whole thing. Its Hamas's contining inability to hold their own accountable and bring them to justice when they break obvious laws that perpetuates this stuff. Yeah but go ahead and blame the israel

[CRedskinsRule]

3 dead equals justification for wholesale destruction, since SS33 doesn't want to seem to put up the numbers here are the latest reports (I doubt they are exact, but the enormity of the scale is clearly represented).
Gaza residents dead 2050+, 550+ of whom are children, approx 350 women and seniors.(Come on, Grampa you should have moved your wheelchair faster). So if as SS33 proclaims, these are super accurate missiles, only hitting the targets of Israeli vengeance, then Israel has purposefully killed nearly 900 non combatants in response to 3 dead teens. I think the world should be outraged.

As for Israeli deaths in that same time, including the 3 above, less than 64 soldiers and 6 civilians. No reported attacks have come through the "terror tunnels".

images are graphic, and not suitable for work, or really for any civilized nation to abide by:
https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza...w=1067&bih=511

Not to mention reportedly 2Billion dollars worth of infrastructure damage, that will take 3-5 years or more to rebuild, just so Israel can destroy it again, as it has done twice this century already.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

3 dead equals justification for wholesale destruction, since SS33 doesn't want to seem to put up the numbers here are the latest reports (I doubt they are exact, but the enormity of the scale is clearly represented).
Gaza residents dead 2050+, 550+ of whom are children, approx 350 women and seniors.(Come on, Grampa you should have moved your wheelchair faster). So if as SS33 proclaims, these are super accurate missiles, only hitting the targets of Israeli vengeance, then Israel has purposefully killed nearly 900 non combatants in response to 3 dead teens. I think the world should be outraged.

As for Israeli deaths in that same time, including the 3 above, less than 64 soldiers and 6 civilians. No reported attacks have come through the "terror tunnels".

images are graphic, and not suitable for work, or really for any civilized nation to abide by:
https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza...w=1067&bih=511

Not to mention reportedly 2Billion dollars worth of infrastructure damage, that will take 3-5 years or more to rebuild, just so Israel can destroy it again, as it has done twice this century already.

What about the illegal tunnels dug into israel to transport terriost, weapons, etc? Not to mention the rocket attacks which routinely break ceasefire.

Its the principal of accountability. You know what Hamas should have done was arrest the kidnap (cough, killers) hand them over for a proper trial. All this could have been avoided.

Hamas could have said no we are not in the business of killing children for political gain.

Sorry, there is no excuse.

[CRedskinsRule]

As I said, no terror tunnels were used for attacks. As for the rockets fired routinely, it's like a 50 lb weakling pounding on the bully's chest and saying that it's his fault that the bully smashed his face in. Hamas and the Palestinians could fire rockets forever and not cause 1/100th of the damage of the IDF.

Saying it's accountability, without holding Israel accountable for the death, destruction, and wholesale savagery of their inordinately extreme bombardments is, to me, mixed up.

To be clear, I am not saying the Palestinians are without fault, but to somehow say 70 dead Israelis, all but 3 of whom are soldiers is justification for the killing of over 2000 and wounding over 8000 Palestinians is horrific logic.

In terms of the ceasefire, if the rockets that Hamas fires were causing equivalent death and destruction to Israeli's then yes I would get that Israel had to respond to it, but they don't, and 60 rockets shot down and no-one hurt ought not give Israel license to go kill another 1-200 Palestinians. At somepoint, you have to tell Israel, put the attack guns down, we will supply your Iron dome, and help with defensive responses in any way possible, but there will be no peace if you continue the mass killings of Palestinian's. Those should be unacceptable. And if Israel can't accept that killing 900 innocent women,children, and seniors is an unacceptable response, than we ought to use our influence and ask them flat out, if we drop our support, how long will you survive.

[CRedskinsRule]

Back to the bully example.
A tiny kid gets angry, and throws pencils at a top athlete in school.

The athlete can:
A) break the pencils, walk over and pound the kid into the ground, and leave him disfigured for life.
B) break the pencil, get a drink and get help from others to get the kid to stop throwing pencils

Yeah the kid shouldn't be throwing pencils, and yeah maybe one gets the athlete good in the ear, or worst case eye. But at no point does throwing ineffective pencils justify the athlete using his superior strength to mercilessly abuse the weaker kid.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Back to the bully example.
A tiny kid gets angry, and throws pencils at a top athlete in school.

The athlete can:
A) break the pencils, walk over and pound the kid into the ground, and leave him disfigured for life.
B) break the pencil, get a drink and get help from others to get the kid to stop throwing pencils

Yeah the kid shouldn't be throwing pencils, and yeah maybe one gets the athlete good in the ear, or worst case eye. But at no point does throwing ineffective pencils justify the athlete using his superior strength to mercilessly abuse the weaker kid.

we are just going to disagree, you can side with the terriost. Politically, both are wrong.

[Chico23231]

Pentagon chief: ISIS 'beyond anything we have seen' - CNN.com

this is why ive grown to hate this administration. Hagel is trying to sell me on something Ive known about for about a year. And now instead of doing something about Isis initially, we've let them now come into Iraq and embed themselves in the region, gain iraqi support, more international support and prepare themselves for a fight. Hagel and Obama negligence will cost more civilian causalities and american soliders lives.