Ongoing CBA discussions

[saden1]

Redskins' Vonnie Holliday: Holliday: Players Want Fair CBA - ESPN Video - ESPN

[CRedskinsRule]

NFLLabor.com EXCLUSIVE: Summary of NFL proposal to NFLPA «

[CRedskinsRule]

from Albert Breer's twitter:

[CRedskinsRule]

and

[Ruhskins]

It kills me how much fans support the owners. I think both sides are at blame and should have done this sooner rather than later. While the players may have forced this situation in the last hours, the owners wanted to force a lockout for the longest time.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

It kills me how much fans support the owners. I think both sides are at blame and should have done this sooner rather than later. While the players may have forced this situation in the last hours, the owners wanted to force a lockout for the longest time.

And DeMaurice Smith has wanted to de-certify for just as long. I think it's a chicken and egg question, both sides knew it was coming to this, both sides tried to set themselves in the best possible position. But when push came to shove the owners made a bunch of concessions and Smith upped his demands from 5 years to 10.

The players are following Smith's lead, but you listen to them defend the position and its hard to say that they have a good idea of where he is taking them.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

It kills me how much fans support the owners.

I don't get it either, but I pass it off as them being completely ignorant. The other killer thing is how people want to keep saying "Well, if i went to my boss and asked him to show me his books. I'd be fired!" Of course you would, but that's only because you are expendable and easily replaceable. They on the other hand are not.

Don't relate your employment situation to theirs. There are only 1696 NFL (excluding practice squad) players in the world. THE WORLD!! I imagine I can find that many of (fill in your job title) in a single state, never the less the world.

They are in the NFL for a reason, they are the best of the best and can't be replaced. What they can do cannot be duplicated. You on the other hand can be. You can train any monkey to be a fireman, policeman, teacher, doctor, but you can't do the same to replace a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. They are just like Aerosmith, Kanye West, Jack Nicholas, Tom Cruise, or Lady Gaga. They are unique talents that aren't replaceable at the current moment.

What does that mean? Still don't get it? Let me explain it to you this way. Let's say a person like Pavarotti (i know he's dead) played at the particular Opera house. His talent couldn't be duplicated, and people lined up around the block to get tickets to this hot item. Now Pavarotti and the Opera house owner came to a mutual agreement on compensation, but then after a couple years, the Opera house owner tells Pavarotti that the arrangement doesn't work for him. He claims his profits have declined over the past years even though his income has increase annually. He tells Pavarotti he's going to close the Opera house unless he decides to take less. Now Pavarotti is a fair man so he asks to see the numbers. The Opera house owner declines and says that he needs to trust him. Now think about this. Those people aren't there for the Opera house, they are there for Pavarotti. That whole business has been built off and thrives because of the talent that Pavarotti provides.


Moral: They can ask to see the books because their talent isn't replaceable and has made men BILLIONAIRES (that seemingly want more). You on the other hand cannot because you are a dime a dozen when it comes to the job market. Sorry guys, but that's just the way it is.


Reminder:

1) Owners opted out of this deal, NOT the players.
2) Owners have been positioning themselves for a lockout for years. (trying to exempt themselves from Monopoly rules via Supreme Court, brokering TV contracts with a lockout payment clause)
3) Refuse to show books claiming profit loss over the past years and wants the players to "trust them" on the numbers. (mind you, this profit loss could be from making 300 million one year to 299 million the following.)


You do the math. Big business and greedy corporations are ruining this country. Now, they threaten the status of professional football. The good news is, if the NFL ever folded, you can rest assure there are other investors that would take less to see it operate. After all, rich is rich.

[CRedskinsRule]

interesting release from the US Chamber of Commerce:
U.S. Chamber Statement on Decision of NFL Players Association to Decertify As a Union | U.S. Chamber of Commerce

Release Date: Mar 11, 2011Contact: 888-249-NEWS
U.S. Chamber Statement on Decision of NFL Players Association to Decertify As a Union

WASHINGTON, D.C.—U.S. Chamber of Commerce Senior Vice President of Labor, Immigration, and Employee Benefits, Randel K. Johnson, issued the following statement today on the decision by the NFL Players Association to decertify as a union:

“We are troubled by the decision of the NFL Players to decertify as a union so that they may litigate under the antitrust laws, with the prospect that once the litigation is over they will again claim they are a union. Gaming the labor laws and the antitrust laws offers a potentially disastrous model for labor-management relations in this country and raises serious questions of labor policy.”

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the world’s largest business federation representing the interests of more than 3 million businesses of all sizes, sectors, and regions, as well as state and local chambers and industry associations.

# # #

[Longtimefan]

Because of all of this chaos going on, with the parties not really knowing how this is going to play out in court, you could end up with a situation where both sides judge their legal position to be stronger than they might actually be. That's the one scenario in which I could see the work stoppage lasting a lot longer past early September.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I don't get it either, but I pass it off as them being completely ignorant. The other killer thing is how people want to keep saying "Well, if i went to my boss and asked him to show me his books. I'd be fired!" Of course you would, but that's only because you are expendable and easily replaceable. They on the other hand are not.

Don't relate your employment situation to theirs. There are only 1696 NFL (excluding practice squad) players in the world. THE WORLD!! I imagine I can find that many of (fill in your job title) in a single state, never the less the world.

They are in the NFL for a reason, they are the best of the best and can't be replaced. What they can do cannot be duplicated. You on the other hand can be. You can train any monkey to be a fireman, policeman, teacher, doctor, but you can't do the same to replace a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. They are just like Aerosmith, Kanye West, Jack Nicholas, Tom Cruise, or Lady Gaga. They are unique talents that aren't replaceable at the current moment.

What does that mean? Still don't get it? Let me explain it to you this way. Let's say a person like Pavarotti (i know he's dead) played at the particular Opera house. His talent couldn't be duplicated, and people lined up around the block to get tickets to this hot item. Now Pavarotti and the Opera house owner came to a mutual agreement on compensation, but then after a couple years, the Opera house owner tells Pavarotti that the arrangement doesn't work for him. He claims his profits have declined over the past years even though his income has increase annually. He tells Pavarotti he's going to close the Opera house unless he decides to take less. Now Pavarotti is a fair man so he asks to see the numbers. The Opera house owner declines and says that he needs to trust him. Now think about this. Those people aren't there for the Opera house, they are there for Pavarotti. That whole business has been built off and thrives because of the talent that Pavarotti provides.


Moral: They can ask to see the books because their talent isn't replaceable and has made men BILLIONAIRES (that seemingly want more). You on the other hand cannot because you are a dime a dozen when it comes to the job market. Sorry guys, but that's just the way it is.


Reminder:

1) Owners opted out of this deal, NOT the players.
2) Owners have been positioning themselves for a lockout for years. (trying to exempt themselves from Monopoly rules via Supreme Court, brokering TV contracts with a lockout payment clause)
3) Refuse to show books claiming profit loss over the past years and wants the players to "trust them" on the numbers. (mind you, this profit loss could be from making 300 million one year to 299 million the following.)


You do the math. Big business and greedy corporations are ruining this country. Now, they threaten the status of professional football. The good news is, if the NFL ever folded, you can rest assure there are other investors that would take less to see it operate. After all, rich is rich.

Ya know, your first statement really ticked me off. I don't consider myself ignorant, nor a blind owner follower (any more than a player supporter is a blind player supporter). Again the issues have been gone over and over, but to say a fan who supports the owners is ignorant is a highly ignorant position from you.

These players make hundreds of millions more than those that first decertified and made valiant strides to get fair deals for all involved. These nflpa personnel, and particularly the non player demaurice smith, are a bunch of arrogant sob's who think that they are partners in a business when they are not, it is just not their legal position whether there are 1700 or 17000 members in their union. I make no comparisons to my position or job, these men have 4 BILLION dollars to partition among themselves for their health, livelihood, and fair compensation for being the best of the best and they don't see that as reasonable. I call bs. Not because I am ignorant nor because the owners have been "good faith actors", but because the players association has been full of b.s. since smith started spewing his lies and leading good players and good men astray like lost sheep.

(Ps nc skins I refrained from saying a particular statement towards you for your comment about people who disagree with your point of view towards corporations, but really f that opening statement.)

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

These players make hundreds of millions more than those that first decertified and made valiant strides to get fair deals for all involved.

No, players don't make hundreds of millions of dollars. For every Peyton Manning, there are 10 Brandon Banks making squat (in the grand scheme of things) compared to the lavish contracts you hear about. Also, you have one owner (who doesn't do shit) getting paid 100-400 million a year on profits alone. Again, it's the players who ARE the product, not the stadium. Until the owners sacrifice their body and health, then that money should be going to the players.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

These nflpa personnel, and particularly the non player demaurice smith, are a bunch of arrogant sob's who think that they are partners in a business when they are not, it is just not their legal position whether there are 1700 or 17000 members in their union.

You are right, they aren't partners in the business. They ARE the business. If they left and went to the UFL or formed another league, guess who would watch. The fans would. Why? Because that's where the talent (read..product) is that we currently pay for. So because Smith chooses not to be buddy buddy with the owners and kiss their ass, he's a arrogant SOB? Dude, have you a clue to any of the owners? Every last one of them are arrogant SOBs starting with the biggest one off all being our dumbass owner.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I make no comparisons to my position or job, these men have 4 BILLION dollars to partition among themselves for their health, livelihood, and fair compensation for being the best of the best and they don't see that as reasonable.

Hey, guess what? The owners have 5 billion to split with 32 people as compared to having to split 4 billion with 1696 people. Wonder who's coming out on top? You are making this too easy.

These men have a average of 4 years in the NFL to make enough money to sustain them for the rest of their life. Most aren't making the big bucks like Tom Brady. Most of these guys will sacrifice their future quality of life just to make this money. As you've noted as late with all the incidents coming up about old NFL players health from prolong concussions, and the NFL has left them high and dry.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I call bs. Not because I am ignorant nor because the owners have been "good faith actors", but because the players association has been full of b.s. since smith started spewing his lies and leading good players and good men astray like lost sheep.

Really? What lies are those? Care to point them out? To say the players association has been full of B.S. and putting the players at fault is beyond ignorant. Guess what. If the OWNERS hadn't opted out, there would still be a CBA and still football on the table. THIS IS ALL ON THE OWNERS. They made the claim that their profits have decreased YET aren't willing to show the books. OWNERS FAULT. Again, the players aren't the ones that opted out of this and to make it seem like the players are behind this is ignorance at it's fullest. I showed you where the NFL has been positioning themselves from the moment they signed the 2006 CBA to opt out 2 years later. They were planning this coup the moment they signed along with Gene Upshaw. This was in the works LONG before Smith was put in to lead the NFLPA. You are so blind, it's not even funny. Are you ones of these guys that watch Fox, CNN, or MSNBC and swallow everything they tell you as 100% truth?

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

(Ps nc skins I refrained from saying a particular statement towards you for your comment about people who disagree with your point of view towards corporations, but really f that opening statement.)

You can say what you want, but the fact remains that people are ignorant about the situation. I don't think you are ignorant just because you disagree with me, I think people are ignorant because they aren't seeing the reality of it (see my original post). How can the players be at fault when they aren't the ones that have caused this crisis, it was the owners by opting out of the CBA. We(including myself) are all ignorant about something or another so don't take it as a personal shot, it's not.


Let's do another recap on the situation here:

1) Owners opted out of this deal, NOT the players.
2) Owners have been positioning themselves for a lockout for years. (trying to exempt themselves from Monopoly rules via Supreme Court, brokering TV contracts with a lockout payment clause)
3) Owners refuse to show books claiming profit loss over the past years and wants the players to "trust them" on the numbers. (mind you, this profit loss could be from making 300 million one year to 299 million the following.)

[redskins5044]

[QUOTE=NC_Skins;788664]No, players don't make hundreds of millions of dollars. For every Peyton Manning, there are 10 Brandon Banks making squat (in the grand scheme of things) compared to the lavish contracts you hear about. Also, you have one owner (who doesn't do shit) getting paid 100-400 million a year on profits alone. Again, it's the players who ARE the product, not the stadium. Until the owners sacrifice their body and health, then that money should be going to the players.

Then why are Manning, Brady and Brees the front runners for the lawsuit. The general public wont have sympathy for these guys, they make hundreds of millions of dollars.


I dont call making about 300,000 dollars a year making squat. The players play a game the puts there body in danger. If they dont want to get hurt then dont play this "GAME" for a living.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by redskins5044

Then why are Manning, Brady and Brees the front runners for the lawsuit. The general public wont have sympathy for these guys, they make hundreds of millions of dollars.


I dont call making about 300,000 dollars a year making squat. The players play a game the puts there body in danger. If they dont want to get hurt then dont play this "GAME" for a living.

They are front runners on the lawsuit because they are leaders and representatives. You realize that a rookie is even on the list.

Also involved in bringing the lawsuit: San Diego receiver Vincent Jackson, Minnesota linebacker Ben Leber and defensive end Brian Robison, New England guard Logan Mankins, New York Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora, Kansas City linebacker Mike Vrabel, and Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller, who is entered in this year's draft.

These guys are collectively suing on behalf of the players. The purpose was to have well known guys, to obscure guys, to guys who haven't even played a snap yet.

So you are fine with some rich asshole sitting in the owners box pulling down 400 million a year on profit alone (and worth over a billion dollars), but it boils your blood to see guys who put their health on the line to make 300k? Think about that for a second. Just think. America's mindset is warped. Also, 300k in the grand scheme of things when talking about 9 billion is "squat". It's huge to us because our talent (whatever it may be) doesn't demand that type of compensation.

[skinsfaninok]

You go to your Companies owner and ask for half of the profits, see what they say. That's business folks owners should have more money and control than their employees

[skinster]

I hope the owners come out on top, just cause I think it'd be funny if the consistency of owners ruling the nfl happened.