Has Bugel lost it?

[#56fanatic]

Buges is still one of the best O-line coaches in the game. he has taken a confidence stricken, technique lacking o line and brought back the confidence we use to see back in the day. He is a motivator, those guys will run through fire for him. Plus the improvement of Dockery is a tribute to Buges. As far as backups, I think Molinaro is the only one on the team that he has coached. Most of the backups are new because the ones that were here when he got here stunk.

[Mc2guy]

Originally Posted by offiss

Bugel has proven he knows what to do with talent, and how does anyone know if there is a problem right now with our starters? But we defiently have a problem with thier backups, and a lot of that stems from the fact that somehow we believe that you can draft quality linemen in rd's 5 through 7, we have thrown away to many early round draft picks where that depth could have been built, so we are left with players who have size but no ability to perform at the NFL level. Bugel just coaches them he doesn't draft them, it's not his fault.

First off, you are right...it's not Bugels fault we don't have depth at the O-line, it's the NFLPA's fault for instituting free agency. You can't do what Gibbs and Buges did in the 80's anymore, which is stock starter quality backup talent on your team by throwing money around and putting a guy on the practice squad who would be a starter elsewhere. Today, quality players will get paid like quality players and the salary cap means you have one of two choices...1) Stock really good starters and mediocre back-ups ala the Redskins, or 2) Stock better than average but not great starters, and better than average back-ups, ala the Patriots and Eagles. Obviously the second option worked for the Pats, (and only the pats), but it's not the strategy employed here, nor most teams in the league. Now, if I were given the choice of a single position I would splurge on, it would't be WR's as the skins have done, I would not have picked up ARE, and instead picked up two quality G/Ts instead. Of course I don't own the team, nor do I have three rings to my credit, so take that for what it's worth.

Second point is that when guys refer to the "Hogs" you have to remember that these guys were considered huge for their day, but would probably be the lightest line in the league by today's standards. Grimm and Butz were barely cracking 300 lbs, and no where near the 360 that Dockery played at last year. Of course Defensive Tackles back then were only 320, not 400lbs. The Refrigerator Perry was only in the low 330's and was considered a giant. Just to keep the perspective in line.

[MTK]

As a unit, the backup OL did not look very good against the Bengals.

But that doesn't mean individually they aren't capable of filling in. I'm not sure we really know what we have yet as far as the backups are concerned.

[firstdown]

As I said in another thread if most where like me watching the game I was watching the line as a whole. Only a few of those guys are going to make the team and if two are playing poorly (missing assignments etc) it will make the whole unit look bad. The coaches are going to hand pick the few that look good and plug them into (when needed) a solid group of linemen. I would think with the three (Bugel, Saunders, Gibbs) if they saw a problem with the backups they would have addressed the problem.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

As a unit, the backup OL did not look very good against the Bengals.

But that doesn't mean individually they aren't capable of filling in. I'm not sure we really know what we have yet as far as the backups are concerned.

This is a good post. When the 1st team came out of the game, the entire starting offensive line went out and they put in 5 backups and Todd Collins at QB. The line was a freakin turnstile, but there were so many rushers coming through I couldn't really recognize which individual linemen were having trouble and which ones were holding their own.

If you put Mike Pucillo on a line, subbing in for Rabach and playing in between Samuels, Dockery, Thomas, and Jansen, I bet Pucillo holds up just fine. Tough to evaluate the line just yet. I need to see more in the preseason before I judge it.

Incidentally, Todd Collins did nothing to redeem himself the other night, but I definitely need to reserve judgment on him too. If he played behind the 1st team offensive line the story might be completely different. He was getting rushed so damn much I don't know what we can expect him to do. He made a few boneheaded decisions like trying to ditch the ball and getting it picked by a DE. And then getting sacked in the end zone. But a lot of that blame goes to the line too, it's hard to fault Collins too much. If Brunell were in there for that bull rush, the only thing he could have done better is gotten rid of the ball a bit better. It's not like Brunell or Campbell would have done much positive if a rush like that came in their face every down. I'm reserving judgment on everyone at this point.

[djdunick]

I agree with another one of the posts that Bugel still is a great O-line coach but maybe his influence with Gibbs and upper management isn't very great. You saw how the offensive production plummeted last year when Randy Thomas went out. The Skins set a record for lowest yards in a playoff win. They should've learned their lesson but chose only to go after position players in free agency which surprised me greatly. Dockery is Ok but he's not a pro-bowler.

The O-line backups looked pathetic on Sunday against the Bengals 2nd string and this is an area that they should've put a priority on in the offseason especially with an older quarterback who is more prone to injury. Maybe go after 1 position player and concentrate on getting at least one solid backup on the O-line.

[skins052bgr8]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Different time now. Gibbs and Co. used to stash starter level players on IR and in backup roles because they could. Nowadays it is difficult to keep good players as backups and you are seeing the product. You seem amazed that when a first stringer goes down that there is a dropoff in the level of play with the next player. I would think that it would be obvious that the backups aren't as good.

Excellent point FRPLG, this is the same for any team in regards to starting caliber back ups at any position. If they are of starting caliber the chances are they will be starting for another team and not in a back up role. Salary Cap just does not allow you to stock pile good back ups, if they are good enough to start it is a good chance we don't have the money to meet agents and players demands to pay them as a starter, though they may only be a back up on our team, so in turn the player leaves and starts for another team. I don't think we have to fear our entire line goes down and we have to play with all back ups like the first preseason game this year, but most of these players in reserve I hope will be serviceable and I think buges feels comfortable with these players to fill those roles if an individual goes down.

[Defensewins]

NO, Bugel has not lost it.

The problem is for ten years Snydratto drafted terribly after the second round. They would do well with 1st and second round picks, but NOTHING after that. You can not develop quality depth at any position when your later round picks suck and get cut year after year.

In Bugels first term Bethard/Casserly found OL gems everywhere:

1) In Bugels first year Bethard/Casserly drafted M. May and R. Grimm (1st & 3rd round), then signed as undrafted F.A. rookies Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bosic. 4/5 of our line came in one offseason.

Raleigh McKenzie (11th round) and Ed Simmons (6th round) were great backups and ended up becoming great starters.
Call these lower picks lucky or smart.
We need to maxmize our draft picks for cheap depth.

FRPLG-
Back in the day Gibbs stashed QB's and other positions on IR. but I do not recall Gibbs ever stashing an offensive lineman of any significance on IR. They went out and found great players.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

1) In Bugels first year Bethard/Casserly drafted M. May and R. Grimm (1st & 3rd round), then signed as undrafted F.A. rookies Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bosic. 4/5 of our line came in one offseason.

Raleigh McKenzie (11th round) and Ed Simmons (6th round) were great backups and ended up becoming great starters.
Call these lower picks lucky or smart.
We need to maxmize our draft picks for cheap depth.

Excellent point. And don't forget Mark Schlereth -- another late round gem.

Sometimes I wonder whether that was really great scouting and a demonstration of Beathard's keen eye for spotting talent, or was it just the luck of the draw? Just think of the one-in-a-million shot the Patriots had by taking one of the best quarterbacks in the league in the 6th round!

I guess it's a combination of both. The stars were certainly aligned for the Redskins throughout the 80's. But Beathard was one of best at his job.

[SmootSmack]

By the way, have you seen Schlereth's daughter? She's no Ramona but still cute

DailyCeleb.com...

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Excellent point. And don't forget Mark Schlereth -- another late round gem.

Sometimes I wonder whether that was really great scouting and a demonstration of Beathard's keen eye for spotting talent, or was it just the luck of the draw? Just think of the one-in-a-million shot the Patriots had by taking one of the best quarterbacks in the league in the 6th round!

I guess it's a combination of both. The stars were certainly aligned for the Redskins throughout the 80's. But Beathard was one of best at his job.

Beathard made those type of picks everywhere he went, he was one of the all time great talent evaluaters, Gibbs now that he has total control on personel is finding out that drafting late is much more than just making a selection, you here him constantly say how he believes we will really find some big surprises from these late round picks, of coarse that used to happen under Beathard but it hasen't happened yet for him. Espy is the first player under Gibbs to really have a chance to be that kind of player.

[MightyJoeGibbs]

The thread title at first made me think he had a panty rade at an old folks home. Buge's your sly dog.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by offiss

Beathard made those type of picks everywhere he went, he was one of the all time great talent evaluaters, Gibbs now that he has total control on personel is finding out that drafting late is much more than just making a selection, you here him constantly say how he believes we will really find some big surprises from these late round picks, of coarse that used to happen under Beathard but it hasen't happened yet for him. Espy is the first player under Gibbs to really have a chance to be that kind of player.

RB Jessie Lumsden looks good so far. He could develop into a good player.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

RB Jessie Lumsden looks good so far. He could develop into a good player.

Agreed, I don't believe he's an everydown back, but used properly he could be very valuable, I actually think we didn't do to bad this year in the later rounds and free agency, but that does remain to be seen.

[Dogtag]

Has Bugel lost it? NO!!!

Is this an "I'm Bored" topic?