Pastabelly bashes J. Gibbs

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Yes, every year we have injury problems, and the next year everything is grand. Sorry. Until I actually see something I'm not buying it. As I said, replace Gibbs with any other surname and I bet this is a drastically different discussion.

I hope you're referring to me not being a skins fan. Keep drinking the kool-aid buddy. I'm watching every game, go to as many as I can afford, and follow the skins religiously. Just because I try to do my best to see the skins for what they are, it doesn't mean I'm not a fan. I'm glad what we did in '05, however, as I mentioned before we rode our defense all the way, and Portis on the offensive side of the ball.

Say what you want. Winner winner winner. Over the last three year Gibbs has lost.

As far as this team having talent, what are you smoking? This team is loaded with talent. Certainly we don't have a ton of depth, and besides D line, I can't think of huge positions of need.

Cynical does not necessarily equal objective though.

I've noticed that in a lot of your posts, you tend to use phases along the lines of, "not buying it until I actually see something". I've been wondering for awhile now...what exactly is it that you are waiting to "see". Obviously, a dominant month of December resulting in a 10-6 overall record against the 2nd toughest schedule in the NFL didn't show you enough. What are you waiting to see from this organization and this coaching staff?

Over the last three years Gibbs has lost? Well, outside of being a blatently incorrect statement, I'm not sure what you are saying here. The Redskins record over the last three years has produced more losses than wins over a three year period...so Gibbs is incapable of winning? I think you are really grasping for straws here.

I don't understand why people waste time saying stuff like, "replace Gibbs with any other surname and I bet this is a drastically different discussion". Well, yeah, obviously. The thing about that is his name is Gibbs, he's probably not changing it anytime soon. The name comes with a proven successful track record. Earned, not handed to him. "What if it wasn't Gibbs" is an irrelivant argument, in part due to the fact that, well, it is Gibbs.

Having talent doesn't mean a whole lot when most teams you play have more than you.

[ncskinsfanec]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Cynical does not necessarily equal objective though.

I've noticed that in a lot of your posts, you tend to use phases along the lines of, "not buying it until I actually see something". I've been wondering for awhile now...what exactly is it that you are waiting to "see". Obviously, a dominant month of December resulting in a 10-6 overall record against the 2nd toughest schedule in the NFL didn't show you enough. What are you waiting to see from this organization and this coaching staff?

Over the last three years Gibbs has lost? Well, outside of being a blatently incorrect statement, I'm not sure what you are saying here. The Redskins record over the last three years has produced more losses than wins over a three year period...so Gibbs is incapable of winning? I think you are really grasping for straws here.

I don't understand why people waste time saying stuff like, "replace Gibbs with any other surname and I bet this is a drastically different discussion". Well, yeah, obviously. The thing about that is his name is Gibbs, he's probably not changing it anytime soon. The name comes with a proven successful track record. Earned, not handed to him. "What if it wasn't Gibbs" is an irrelivant argument, in part due to the fact that, well, it is Gibbs.

Having talent doesn't mean a whole lot when most teams you play have more than you.

Gibbs is the best coach this team has had since, um, Gibbs. Pettibone, Turner, Schottenheimer, and Spurrier couldn't hold a candle to this guy. I think our young friend is hoping that we get someone like a Sean Payton or Eric Mangini. What he doesn't realize, however, is that those guys have only been with their respective team's just one season. Let's just see how those guys handle the tough times, and if they can continue being successful in the fickle NFL. Gibbs has proven what he can do in the long run, and it's a pretty sterling record! Remember the phrase, "it's not a sprint, it's a marathon."

P.S. I know what some of you will say, "Well Gibbs isn't here for the long run!" What I'm saying is the man know's how to handle adversity.

[skinsfan_nn]

I agree with both you folks nc & gtrip.

This thread is like pissing in the wind. If anyone doesn't know enough about Joe Gibbs, PAST & PRESENT, and the knowledge and know how to turn around an organization that he has. They are clueless.

Stick with the one of the Greatest coachs to ever coach this game, he will prove these na sayers 100% wrong, very quietly. You can NEVER underestimate Joe, soon as you do he will make you look like a FOOL!

[GusFrerotte]

Not a Pastabelly or SI fan at all, but I don't think Gibbs is going to right the ship to the point of another glorious era like 1982-1992. Fact of the matter is the FO screwed up too badly during Spurrier, then on top of that Gibbs and the FO messed it up more. We wasted 2 potential playoff seasons by Gibbs keeping Brunell in for far too long when Mark stunk up the place something terrible. In '04 he put Patrick in a few games too late, when a couple more victories could have meant playoffs, same thing with JC last season. The moves via Free Agency have been a mixed bag at best, but overall a big waste in $$$$$$$. Archuleta, Patten, the FA D linemen we have, etc are total busts. Brunell is the biggest bust of all, costing us what should have been the aforementioned 2 playoff seasons, when on paper we were a powerhouse that should have annihilated the other teams in our division(especially Dallas). Now Lloyd looks to be a future bust unless he gets it going this season, and Portis is going to be a 50+ million dollar part time player with Betts getting about half the carries probably. Don't get me going on the draft. Only decent draft we have had IMHO during Gibbs II was when we traded up for the first 2 rounders in JC and Rogers. THe other drafts made us look like we didn't have a clue or any concrete plan to utilize it to build a team.

[Darrell_Green_28]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Oh, Joe Gibbs is trying to fix the salary cap mess? I didn't realize that with all of the high priced free agents he's gone after (minus this year). Snyder made mistakes far before Gibbs came back, everything points to him having very little say in the overall player acquisition process. The people who bring in these players are Gibbs and to a lesser extent G Will. Gibbs has been in "win now" mode since he got here (notice lack of any draft picks, trading up every year, etc). Yes, we made the playoffs one year, riding the coat tails of an awesome G Williams defense. I think it's hard to mark that up to Gibbs pathetic offense.

I've given Gibbs three years and I'm not impressed. I'll give him one more reluctantly, but people need to stop living in the glory years and look at Gibbs stint for what it is now. Erase his name and type in Joe Blow everyone here would be calling for his head because of the multiple bad decisions and basic lack of winning.

just cuz you weren't around or were too young to remember his first tenure here does not mean he wont pull it off.. Grow up! Joe Gibbs will never be erased.. THANK YOU

[skinsfan_nn]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

Not a Pastabelly or SI fan at all, but I don't think Gibbs is going to right the ship to the point of another glorious era like 1982-1992. Fact of the matter is the FO screwed up too badly during Spurrier, then on top of that Gibbs and the FO messed it up more. We wasted 2 potential playoff seasons by Gibbs keeping Brunell in for far too long when Mark stunk up the place something terrible. In '04 he put Patrick in a few games too late, when a couple more victories could have meant playoffs, same thing with JC last season. The moves via Free Agency have been a mixed bag at best, but overall a big waste in $$$$$$$. Archuleta, Patten, the FA D linemen we have, etc are total busts. Brunell is the biggest bust of all, costing us what should have been the aforementioned 2 playoff seasons, when on paper we were a powerhouse that should have annihilated the other teams in our division(especially Dallas). Now Lloyd looks to be a future bust unless he gets it going this season, and Portis is going to be a 50+ million dollar part time player with Betts getting about half the carries probably. Don't get me going on the draft. Only decent draft we have had IMHO during Gibbs II was when we traded up for the first 2 rounders in JC and Rogers. THe other drafts made us look like we didn't have a clue or any concrete plan to utilize it to build a team.

With a screen name like Gus Frerotte, we have to MUTE you!
Just remember teams don't play on paper, paper doesn't mean jack. Brunell did lead the offense in 05 to the playoffs, and yea Joe Gibbs was also the Coach then to. You left alot of important info out of your book?
Get off the bus GUS.

GIBBS RULES!

[Darrell_Green_28]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Yes, every year we have injury problems, and the next year everything is grand. Sorry. Until I actually see something I'm not buying it. As I said, replace Gibbs with any other surname and I bet this is a drastically different discussion.

I hope you're referring to me not being a skins fan. Keep drinking the kool-aid buddy. I'm watching every game, go to as many as I can afford, and follow the skins religiously. Just because I try to do my best to see the skins for what they are, it doesn't mean I'm not a fan. I'm glad what we did in '05, however, as I mentioned before we rode our defense all the way, and Portis on the offensive side of the ball.

Say what you want. Winner winner winner. Over the last three year Gibbs has lost.


As far as this team having talent, what are you smoking? This team is loaded with talent. Certainly we don't have a ton of depth, and besides D line, I can't think of huge positions of need.

well isnt that what happens when you have injuries and your DEPTH has to come in and play which it didnt.
Name a coach that hasnt lost in the last 3 seasons, you cant can you?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Yes, every year we have injury problems, and the next year everything is grand. Sorry. Until I actually see something I'm not buying it. As I said, replace Gibbs with any other surname and I bet this is a drastically different discussion.

I hope you're referring to me not being a skins fan. Keep drinking the kool-aid buddy. I'm watching every game, go to as many as I can afford, and follow the skins religiously. Just because I try to do my best to see the skins for what they are, it doesn't mean I'm not a fan. I'm glad what we did in '05, however, as I mentioned before we rode our defense all the way, and Portis on the offensive side of the ball.

Say what you want. Winner winner winner. Over the last three year Gibbs has lost.

As far as this team having talent, what are you smoking? This team is loaded with talent. Certainly we don't have a ton of depth, and besides D line, I can't think of huge positions of need.

Randy Moss has talent...what's your point? The point is, every player in this league apparently has the talent to play in the pros, but it comes down to the right coaches bringing them along the right way. Nobody saw last year's let down coming, neither did you. Maybe you had hoped for such in order to say to us older fans, "I told you so," but sorry, we know better. Gibbs is a far better organizer of a franchise than Spurrier or any other coach we have had. It is not going to happen over night, and if it did..then we'd really have to wonder what was up with the other coaches we had in between the two Gibbs' eras. Apparently, they were far worse at coaching than what we had given them credit for. And as far as loaded with talent, it's a bit contradictory to say we're loaded with talent, but lack depth. That doesn't make any sense?? How can we be loaded with talent but lack depth?

The truth is, Gibbs still has it and will prove it this year. If he doesn't make a believer out of you, then fine. But, the game of football, albeit a change in rules here and there, is still played the same way it was in his first tenure. Gibbs still has the tools, you just have to learn patience.

[Daseal]

Here’s a write up as to why I don’t trust Gibbs, in the current arangement to turn the skins back into a winner. First of all, let me say I think this is his last year regardless. If he does poorly I think he’s done in the NFL, and if he does well I think he’ll hand over the reigns and it will look as if he righted the franchise, only time would tell if that’s the case. Every year I hear how the Redskins will either a) Go to the playoffs; b) go far in the playoffs; c) Win the Superbowl. Every year I’m skeptical, every year, except this one I buy in. Last year I thought we’d get a wildcard spot in the playoffs and maybe win one game. I was just as far off as most other people, but I refuse to buy the hype anymore.

I think Joe Gibbs has a few major problems as a coach in this era. I feel he hasn’t yet adjusted, and at this point I’m not sure if he will. It doesn’t all have to do with coaching, but I will explain all of my points below.
1) Joe Gibbs lacks the killer instinct. He fails miserably in finishing teams. How many times have we had a lead, run it three times up the middle, punted, and lost the game? The answer is far too many. I’m not saying go balls to the wall in that situation. High percentage passes, mix up the runs, attempt to get the first down. If we don’t give them the ball back, they don’t have a chance. Often times by that point our defense is exhausted from being on the field the whole time.
2) Joe Gibbs in the front office. This doesn’t just go on Joe Gibbs, I don’t feel any coach should have these responsibilities. While some coaches pull it off (such as Andy Reid) the vast majority of coaches can’t. I simply think being a head coach is enough work without having to worry about overseeing scouting, player acquisition, etc. This isn’t to say the coaches shouldn’t be involved in some sense, but most of the work should go to a GM or whatever system the FO sets up.
3) Too willing to give away draft picks like candy. We’re constantly trading up and acting like draft picks are worth nothing. While I think you can often get a very solid veteran for a reasonable draft pick and often it’s a good deal, I’m much more concerned with the fact that we’re constantly trading up in the draft. For instance, do we really feel that trading up for Rocky was worth it? Unless we felt he was a real impact player, then we should have held fast. Even worse than that is how we seem to always give up more than we have to when it comes to trading.

As far as what I think of Gibbs proving something to me. That means consistency from year to year. I’d like to see us build on success from a previous year. We went from a solid regular season finish in 2005, but we came into 2006 flat and never got it together. I put this on Joe Gibbs. I find many of his decisions questionable both in games and when it comes to other facets of the game.

Yes, keep harping on my age. You can be 85 years old and still not know anything about football. I’ve never claimed myself an expert, and I often have strong opinions that people don’t agree with. However, I’m also right more often than I am wrong. I feel that the only thing I remember from Gibbs’ first stint is how much candy 200 bucks buys from winning the pool for vs the Bills is an asset. I’m not blinded by what he did in the past. I’m taking nothing away from what Gibbs did back in his hay day, but it’s a new era and you can’t take a man who has been out of the league for 11 years and act like his resume just continues without a hiccup.

Trust me, I hope more than anyone else that I’m wrong. But I don’t feel Gibbs relates to athletes anymore. He seems like the senile old grandfather when they go into the locker room and show footage. I’m worried he doesn’t connect with the players, and I feel he doesn’t use players correctly. If Gibbs has a great season next year, feel free to bring this thread back up and I’ll eat crow. However, I don’t expect that to be the case.

[Daseal]

Name a coach that hasnt lost in the last 3 seasons, you cant can you?

Actually, I can name eight. Dungy, Belichick, Schottenheimer, Shanahan, Holmgren, Lewis, Cowher, and Del Rio (Bengals, Steelers, and the Jags all had at least 1 8-8 season, but that’s not losing). That’s a quarter of the league. Surprised?

Randy Moss has talent...what's your point? The point is, every player in this league apparently has the talent to play in the pros, but it comes down to the right coaches bringing them along the right way.

Uh, thanks? This is exactly what I'm saying. Why isn't Gibbs able to bring these guys around and develop the talent we have?

The truth is, Gibbs still has it and will prove it this year. If he doesn't make a believer out of you, then fine. But, the game of football, albeit a change in rules here and there, is still played the same way it was in his first tenure. Gibbs still has the tools, you just have to learn patience.

The game has changed significantly since Gibbs left and he's so much as admitted it. I think three full years is patient. How many coaches get three years to go about their business with a losing record not having to worry about thier job? Not many. Three years is the typical grace period for coaches now days. He's getting a fourth with open arms, but I feel if he doesn't do it, he's in deep trouble.

I know everyone here is biased, but I guarantee you a majority of the football community agrees with me more than you.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Here’s a write up as to why I don’t trust Gibbs, in the current arangement to turn the skins back into a winner. First of all, let me say I think this is his last year regardless. If he does poorly I think he’s done in the NFL, and if he does well I think he’ll hand over the reigns and it will look as if he righted the franchise, only time would tell if that’s the case. Every year I hear how the Redskins will either a) Go to the playoffs; b) go far in the playoffs; c) Win the Superbowl. Every year I’m skeptical, every year, except this one I buy in. Last year I thought we’d get a wildcard spot in the playoffs and maybe win one game. I was just as far off as most other people, but I refuse to buy the hype anymore.

I think Joe Gibbs has a few major problems as a coach in this era. I feel he hasn’t yet adjusted, and at this point I’m not sure if he will. It doesn’t all have to do with coaching, but I will explain all of my points below.
1) Joe Gibbs lacks the killer instinct. He fails miserably in finishing teams. How many times have we had a lead, run it three times up the middle, punted, and lost the game? The answer is far too many. I’m not saying go balls to the wall in that situation. High percentage passes, mix up the runs, attempt to get the first down. If we don’t give them the ball back, they don’t have a chance. Often times by that point our defense is exhausted from being on the field the whole time.
2) Joe Gibbs in the front office. This doesn’t just go on Joe Gibbs, I don’t feel any coach should have these responsibilities. While some coaches pull it off (such as Andy Reid) the vast majority of coaches can’t. I simply think being a head coach is enough work without having to worry about overseeing scouting, player acquisition, etc. This isn’t to say the coaches shouldn’t be involved in some sense, but most of the work should go to a GM or whatever system the FO sets up.
3) Too willing to give away draft picks like candy. We’re constantly trading up and acting like draft picks are worth nothing. While I think you can often get a very solid veteran for a reasonable draft pick and often it’s a good deal, I’m much more concerned with the fact that we’re constantly trading up in the draft. For instance, do we really feel that trading up for Rocky was worth it? Unless we felt he was a real impact player, then we should have held fast. Even worse than that is how we seem to always give up more than we have to when it comes to trading.

As far as what I think of Gibbs proving something to me. That means consistency from year to year. I’d like to see us build on success from a previous year. We went from a solid regular season finish in 2005, but we came into 2006 flat and never got it together. I put this on Joe Gibbs. I find many of his decisions questionable both in games and when it comes to other facets of the game.

Yes, keep harping on my age. You can be 85 years old and still not know anything about football. I’ve never claimed myself an expert, and I often have strong opinions that people don’t agree with. However, I’m also right more often than I am wrong. I feel that the only thing I remember from Gibbs’ first stint is how much candy 200 bucks buys from winning the pool for vs the Bills is an asset. I’m not blinded by what he did in the past. I’m taking nothing away from what Gibbs did back in his hay day, but it’s a new era and you can’t take a man who has been out of the league for 11 years and act like his resume just continues without a hiccup.

Trust me, I hope more than anyone else that I’m wrong. But I don’t feel Gibbs relates to athletes anymore. He seems like the senile old grandfather when they go into the locker room and show footage. I’m worried he doesn’t connect with the players, and I feel he doesn’t use players correctly. If Gibbs has a great season next year, feel free to bring this thread back up and I’ll eat crow. However, I don’t expect that to be the case.

I don't know who keeps hyping us to be a great team year in and year out. Before last season, we certainly earned it. We were as good a superbowl pick as any other team. A lot of things broke against us defensively, mainly that age caught up with us in the front 7 seemingly all at the same time. This was certainly a concern going into the season, but it was incredibly unfortuante that so many key players for us hit the wall last year. If that had happened to any other team in the league, they too would have lost at least 10 games. It would be very short sighted to pin that one on Gibbs.

Prior to last season, I can't remember the last time we had any hype. Hype generated from fan sites such as The Warpath doesn't count.

I can't in good conscience agree that Gibbs lacks a killer instict. You can't make an acusation like that without honestly believing that winning is not as important to Gibbs as it is to the opposing coach. The guy didn't come back so he could not do everything in his power to win ballgames. I think you are taking evidences, such as the Falcons game last year, and interpreting their meanings when it isn't necessary. Look, we had a crappy defense. We got stops on the first two drives in that game and consequently we got a 14-0 lead. But it's not really Gibbs' fault that Campbell couldn't hold up his end of the bargin to keep drives alive in that game and it CERTAINLY isn't Gibbs fault that the worse than replacement passer, Michael Vick, went up and down the field on us with ease. That's not lacking a killer instinct. That's the defense giving up an early lead because they suck.

Your other two reasons are administrative Gibbs reasons. And honestly, you really have to keep seperate Gibbs the talent evaluator and Gibbs the head coach. After all, Gibbs was essentially learning the nuiances of talent eval on the run. He is showing signs of improvement, but that doesn't make up for the critical errors he and his staff made. It wasn't to be unexpected. He's a football coach. He's going to be a fine general manager due to some lessons learned, but he wasn't his first 3 years here. No amount of administrative mistakes should affect the legacy of Gibbs the coach. Respect the individuality of these two seperate entities. Gibbs has proven himself successful at one, and proven himself inexperienced at the other.

I can fully understand your desire for consistent winning. That's just something that's very hard to do. A football game is only 60 mins long. Luck won't necessarily even out over that short time. This makes it hard for even the best coaches to put together a consistent winner. Too much can go wrong that is completely out of the coach's control. Especially in a year where Gibbs relinquished his playcalling duties, it seems really hard to pin the losing season on him as you are doing.

Maybe theres a chance Gibbs isn't using his players correctly. Tell us a few things that you would do differently if you were the coach of the Redskins.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Actually, I can name eight. Dungy, Belichick, Schottenheimer, Shanahan, Holmgren, Lewis, Cowher, and Del Rio (Bengals, Steelers, and the Jags all had at least 1 8-8 season, but that’s not losing). That’s a quarter of the league. Surprised?

Every one of which has more talent than we do on their roster. And of course, the Bengals and Jaguars were only playoff teams once over that time. Seems like Gibbs II has done at least the job that Del Rio and Marvin Lewis have if not better.

Shanahan has a unique offensive system, very much like Gibbs, and comes to each game very prepared. But Shanahan's in game ineptitude has cost the Broncos a share of games that they should have won.

San Diego and Indianapolis have epicly GREAT players on their rosters. They have good coaches, but quite clearly, the players are what keeps the teams consistently successful.

Belicheck and Cowher are very solid coaches, but their organizations do a great job finding cheap talent which keeps them successful for a sustained period of time. I would throw Reid and the Eagles onto this list too, even though their 2005 was an injury riddled one.

It's no secret that the most successful coaches have the best players. Gibbs' roster hasn't been all that great since he returned. It could have been, but it wasn't.

The game has changed significantly since Gibbs left and he's so much as admitted it. I think three full years is patient. How many coaches get three years to go about their business with a losing record not having to worry about thier job? Not many. Three years is the typical grace period for coaches now days. He's getting a fourth with open arms, but I feel if he doesn't do it, he's in deep trouble.

I know everyone here is biased, but I guarantee you a majority of the football community agrees with me more than you.

Whenever a guy is away that long, there will be an adjustment period. I'm guessing by the point when Ramsey replaced Brunell in 2004, he was adjusted just fine. Gibbs has been holding up his end of the bargain for this whole time. Arguably, the head coach is responsible for some of the underachieving that has gone on here...but more accurately, the players are professionals. They have to be incharge of themselves. You can't blame Gibbs for not adequately babysitting these guys. If they aren't giving 100% every week, get new guys.

[dmek25]

without getting as long winded as you two, let me say first, i think Gibbs has earned the semi- free pass he has around here. ill take some mediocrity for 3 super bowl victories, any day. secondly, can you guys name one coach you would rather have here, right now, instead of coach Gibbs? i cant think of one. there are 2 issues that i have with coach Gibbs part 2. first, this man was a master at adjustments. where the hell have they been? and secondly, stop delegating. more of a hall of fame coach, and less of the assistants = more winning. one of the best days for me being a redskins fan is when the skins announced Gibbs was coming back. its time for him to step up, or ride off into the sunshine

[Daseal]

We're obviously not going to convince each other. I've put down what I feel about it and will leave it at that. We're going back and forth with the same thing. Only time will tell who's right when it comes down the line,

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by dmek25

without getting as long winded as you two, let me say first, i think Gibbs has earned the semi- free pass he has around here. ill take some mediocrity for 3 super bowl victories, any day. secondly, can you guys name one coach you would rather have here, right now, instead of coach Gibbs? i cant think of one. there are 2 issues that i have with coach Gibbs part 2. first, this man was a master at adjustments. where the hell have they been? and secondly, stop delegating. more of a hall of fame coach, and less of the assistants = more winning. one of the best days for me being a redskins fan is when the skins announced Gibbs was coming back. its time for him to step up, or ride off into the sunshine

I will agree w/ u here. No 1/2 time adjustments what so ever. First go arounde this guy was the master at it.