Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I heart you

Right back at you slick. (And by the way, I love me some channel 208)

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Does everyone understand that at some point we have to hold the players accountable for how they play? Perhaps part of the reason they keep making the same mistakes is that all the heat is focused on Gibbs and they continually skate. The game is played on the field. Gibbs has made some mistakes, but the players have made a lot more. Those guys have it pretty sweet it seems to me. They get paid millions, deliver nothing, and Coach Gibbs shoulders all the scrutiny. The ass clowns will be lined up around the block again this off-season hoping for a contract to play for the Washington Redskins - the easiest gig in football.

What you just described is an example of a coach not doing his job getting players ready or motivated to play. I can only think of one player that Gibbs let go drun the season because of poor play on the field. I think his name was Brown something the WR we were using as a return man and he fumbled twice in a game.

[BrunellMVP?]

Originally Posted by Vulta121

I'm so tired of hearing this B.S.. There is absolutely no way that Joe Gibbs should be fired or even quit. We are not that good, but we are better than when we were before he got here. Joe probably isn't going to come back after next season anyway. Let him go on his own terms. He is the Joe Pa. and Bobby Bowden of the skins. He deserves to stay as long as he wants. He is not as interactive as other head coaches, the coordinators run there unit. So it really doesn't matter anyway. I love Coach Gibbs and I know any true skins fan does too, leave him alone he is a hof and a legend.

Is this really what we are reduced to when evaluating progress? Stating that the criteria of judgment for a Hall of fame coach with one of the most expensive payrolls in the league is whether or not we are subjectively "better off" now (which i believe, but we were 5-11 in 2003, 6-10 in 2004, 10-6 in 2005, and 5-11 in 2006, at 5-7, which year looks like the anomoly? ), 4 years later, than we were when he came- yet we are still bad? Really? when did guiding a team from bad to still bad, but marginally better than 4 years earlier amount to progress? I'm not saying that we need to be a great team, but i'm struggling to find substantive progress under Gibbs second term. I'm not asking to take a jet to the superbowl, but i don't think walking (three steps forward, 2 steps back) is working well either. At this rate, we'll be good just in time to need to replace the entire offensive line. Management must be held accountable- now that does not mean I want him fired, but I do think he should hire a GM, cede all play calling, and basically function as the aforementioned Bowden at FSU.

PS- I'm not saying Gibbs hasn't done anything...we are a competitive in each game now, we've got a QB for the future (i hope), and he's made some decent moves in the draft and free agency...but honestly, for every good move in the free agency market, he's probably done one that was poor.

[Stacks42]

My point is... Does anyone here think that next year things will change drastically? Is this a Superbowl caliber team? After 4 years this team makes the same errors and loses games they should win, will keeping gibbs around change things, no he has been in charge for the 4 years. Cut ties now and put someone else in charge. No one debates the fact that JG is a great man, and brought years of winning and 3 championships to the skins, BUT in a "what have you done for me lately" league, he hasnt done much.

[SC Skins Fan]

One issue with cleaning house that I have not heard addressed (which doesn't mean it hasn't been addressed) is what happens to Jason Campbell. Anecdotally at least, it seems that often times when a team changes course early on in the development of a young QB that QB drifts off into oblivion. The group that drafted him, had faith in him, and had staked their reputations to him are gone and the proverbial chain tends to get a lot shorter. The new staff will sometimes bring in their own guy, who they want to develop, and they just aren't willing to weather the storms with someone else's choice. Obviously if Gregg Williams were to take over it would be different, but other than that what happens?

Two that come to my mind immediately are J.P. Losman and Phillip Rivers (err, Pat Ramsey?), and maybe I'm extrapolating too much, but it just seems that when teams change direction before a young QB has really established himself it doesn't work too well for the QB.

Edit: and add Matt Leinart this season prior to his injury.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Vulta121

I'm so tired of hearing this B.S.. There is absolutely no way that Joe Gibbs should be fired or even quit. We are not that good, but we are better than when we were before he got here. Joe probably isn't going to come back after next season anyway. Let him go on his own terms. He is the Joe Pa. and Bobby Bowden of the skins. He deserves to stay as long as he wants. He is not as interactive as other head coaches, the coordinators run there unit. So it really doesn't matter anyway. I love Coach Gibbs and I know any true skins fan does too, leave him alone he is a hof and a legend.

Gibbs four years here around .43% win record and 4 years prior to Gibbs .44. We are no better.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Stacks42

My point is... Does anyone here think that next year things will change drastically? Is this a Superbowl caliber team? After 4 years this team makes the same errors and loses games they should win, will keeping gibbs around change things, no he has been in charge for the 4 years. Cut ties now and put someone else in charge. No one debates the fact that JG is a great man, and brought years of winning and 3 championships to the skins, BUT in a "what have you done for me lately" league, he hasnt done much.

That's the point Stacks, he doesn't really have to do anything for us. He just has to guide the team, keep them on the right track, and let the players do the winning.

The cold hard facts are that in our injured state, we've played one of the three toughest schedules in the league. While we missed a few crucial chances to turn 5-7 into 7-5 with average luck (or even better than 7-5 with great fortune), you can't say we haven't played at least 7 games where we were outtalented. Think about it: Philadelphia twice, Dallas, New England, Tampa, Green Bay, and arguably the Giants. When the team is beset by injuries and mediocre overall talent, then the expectation for winning is tampered.

To all but you apparently.

[BrunellMVP?]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Gibbs four years here around .43% win record and 4 years prior to Gibbs .44. We are no better.

While this is a very simplistic way of breaking it down, in the end, the bottom line is what matters and the fact that we haven't won any more games under Gibbs' guidance is a very telling statistic. I do thank him for making us competitive in every game for drafting JC, Taylor, cooley and Rocky among other things...

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by firstdown

What you just described is an example of a coach not doing his job getting players ready or motivated to play. I can only think of one player that Gibbs let go drun the season because of poor play on the field. I think his name was Brown something the WR we were using as a return man and he fumbled twice in a game.

No. What I am describing is an attitude among the fans that it's never the fault of the players. Why should they care how they play when they know that they can turn the ball over 6 times and people will still spend the whole week talking about Gibbs decision to go for it on 4th and 1? For that matter, why should they care wether or not they even get the 4th and 1? We can have all these Fire Gibbs! threads, they are unavoidable. What boggles my mind is why there aren't an equal number of threads directed at players. There are people in here still defending Brandon Lloyd, for crying out loud.

Also, he cut Walter Rasby mid-season in 2004.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

One issue with cleaning house that I have not heard addressed (which doesn't mean it hasn't been addressed) is what happens to Jason Campbell. Anecdotally at least, it seems that often times when a team changes course early on in the development of a young QB that QB drifts off into oblivion. The group that drafted him, had faith in him, and had staked their reputations to him are gone and the proverbial chain tends to get a lot shorter. The new staff will sometimes bring in their own guy, who they want to develop, and they just aren't willing to weather the storms with someone else's choice. Obviously if Gregg Williams were to take over it would be different, but other than that what happens?

Two that come to my mind immediately are J.P. Losman and Phillip Rivers (err, Pat Ramsey?), and maybe I'm extrapolating too much, but it just seems that when teams change direction before a young QB has really established himself it doesn't work too well for the QB.

Edit: and add Matt Leinart this season prior to his injury.

Ben Roethlisberger (4th season), Peyton Manning (5th season), Tony Romo (5th season), Drew Brees (6th season), all flourished under new coaching, but I see your point. My list of guys are considerably older than your list of guys.

Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

No. What I am describing is an attitude among the fans that it's never the fault of the players. Why should they care how they play when they know that they can turn the ball over 6 times and people will still spend the whole week talking about Gibbs decision to go for it on 4th and 1? For that matter, why should they care wether or not they even get the 4th and 1? We can have all these Fire Gibbs! threads, they are unavoidable. What boggles my mind is why there aren't an equal number of threads directed at players. There are people in here still defending Brandon Lloyd, for crying out loud.

Also, he cut Walter Rasby mid-season in 2004.

I think just about everyplayer on this team has had a bash them thread except for I think Cooley. The problem is we have ran out of players to bash and now its falling on the coaching staff and most of all Timeout, Timeout Gibbs. Sorry I had to do that.

[BrunellMVP?]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

That's the point Stacks, he doesn't really have to do anything for us. He just has to guide the team, keep them on the right track, and let the players do the winning.

The cold hard facts are that in our injured state, we've played one of the three toughest schedules in the league. While we missed a few crucial chances to turn 5-7 into 7-5 with average luck (or even better than 7-5 with great fortune), you can't say we haven't played at least 7 games where we were outtalented. Think about it: Philadelphia twice, Dallas, New England, Tampa, Green Bay, and arguably the Giants. When the team is beset by injuries and mediocre overall talent, then the expectation for winning is tampered.

To all but you apparently.

while the coaches can't really be held accountable for injuries (though some suggest they should be, to a degree) I would argue that dead cap space spent on players on Gibbs' wish list aren't helping the situation...

I also do not believe that on an individual level we are less talented than the Bucs and Phili. The Packers are good, but i think they are just playing great as a team, less an individual thing...we have more talent.
the giants have talent, and I'd probably put us on even level with them talent wise..they have better D-lineman for sure though.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I think just about everyplayer on this team has had a bash them thread except for I think Cooley. The problem is we have ran out of players to bash and now its falling on the coaching staff and most of all Timeout, Timeout Gibbs. Sorry I had to do that.

No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.

[BDBohnzie]

firstdown - Antonio Brown, and he was brought back and was a key during that stretch in '05 (91 yard kickoff return for TD against Cards in Week 14)

As far as Gibbs is concerned, he has a 5 year contract, let him honor that.

As far as the players are concerned, I think it's a 2 way street. Execution has certainly been lacking this year (5 4th quarter leads blown). However, it's the coaches that prepare the players to execute their plays. And while it is up to the players on game day to execute, it's up to the coaches to make sure these guys are able to execute 100% of the time. There is something amiss between the coaches and players...

Or is it amiss between one coach and another? Where in this dysfunctional relationship between Gibbs and Saunders is there a leak? It's quite obvious that Saunders is an offensive genius, considering the success he had with the Rams and Chiefs. It's also quite obvious that Gibbs 1.0 had a very successful offense. I know they say Gibbs is hands off when it comes to the offense, and Saunders has been quoted as playing conservative because of the defense's success. However, at what point do both of these men say it's time to open it up a bit? The Chiefs had the #1 offense with Eddie Kennison and Tony Gonzalez catching passes. There is no reason to not think the personnel the Skins have cannot have the same success. Are injuries to this team really that devastating?

There are so many factors that go into this whole process. The bottom line is looking forward to next year, will the fruits of their labor finally come to fruition. This team is extremely close to being successful (5-7 could easily be anywhere from 10-2 to 8-4 based on 4th quarter leads), will everything click next year? Or will another mediocre season come about, with Joe stepping aside, and another year or 2 of transition?

[SFREDSKIN]

Everyone complains about the "last 4 years" Did Joe not take us to the playoffs his second year here? Did he win a playoff game against TB with an old QB? Ok, so we failed last season, this season so far is no better, but if you look at what this team has been through this year, you would understand and yes, I am using injuries as an excuse. I don't know if we'll make the playoffs this year, but I can guarantee you that if Joe comes back next year, they could go all the way. We need a dominant WR, DE, a few backup OL, DB, S. All this can be addressed thru the draft and free agency. Our WR's haven't been effective due to injury, Moss, ARE and Thrash have been injured all year and not been able to produce as they should, OL has been injured and in shambles. Tell me an NFL team with the # of key injuries that we had that would be able to win? The Colts have had some injuries and have struggled but not the # of injuries as us plus they have Peyton Manning. That's my rant.