AST (After Sean Taylor)-To gun or not to gun?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Yeah, stats are nice and all, but some good old fashioned logic and rational thinking goes a long way.

I'm a burglar. House A has a homeowner with no firearms of any sort. House B the homeowner is armed and trained. Which house should I rob?

And conversely, I'm a kid who lives in house A with no firearms of any sort. In house B, there's another kid who's father is armed and trained. Which kid has the greater risk of getting hurt?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by saden1

You sure your dad isn't a made guy?

LOL

Nah, he works for the government.

Maybe he's a spy though?

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Ocliw

The Andy Griffith days are over. You can't leave home with your doors unlocked. You damn sure can't let your children get out of your sight. I'm not a hunter or a gun fanatic but I do own one just in case.

I have two kids and neither one of them know I have it. I don't keep it loaded because of my kids. Hell the bullets and the gun are in two different parts of the house well hidden. I guess if a burglar showed up I'd have to ask him if he minded waiting a sec so I could load up.

We have all heard noises outside and went to take a look. I feel a little better going out with something other than a flashlight and a stick.

'
If you have a dog, maybe the dog will hear the intruder first and give you time to go chasing around the house to find your piece and your loads. Educate your kids about guns and the safe handling of same. The NRA will help you, if you want. They have many programs for kids. They may not be at your house when they encounter a gun and the curiosity to play with it.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And conversely, I'm a kid who lives in house A with no firearms of any sort. In house B, there's another kid who's father is armed and trained. Which kid has the greater risk of getting hurt?

If the kid is properly trained, neither.

The whole kids and firearms argument, to me, is about as weak as it gets. It sure hits the old heart strings when you bring up the kids, but it's not really grounded in much.

When I was about 5 years old, my father took me aside, pulled out his old .22 Colt Woodsman, unloaded it and let me hold it. He told me where he kept it, why he kept it and explained how it worked. He then told me that if I ever wanted to hold it or see it to just ask him, any time of the night or day, and he'd do it with me. At the age of about 8 he took me to the range and taught me to shoot, and also fire three rounds while neither of us had ear protection on, so that I would know what a live fired weapon sounds like. I never snuck into his room to handle a gun, because all I had to do was ask.

Basically the firearm wasn't shrouded in secrecy, locked up, put away and never talked about. That amount of shady secrecy is going to guarantee that a kid will go looking for it.

Yes, untrained, unparented kids find guns and do stupid stuff. They can also grab the car keys and go drive down the road, or drink a bottle of Draino, or stab themselves in the eye with a knife, but I don't hear anyone arguing that nobody should have cars, knives or Draino.

There are some decent arguments against everyone having guns, but "the children" is not one of them.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Ocliw

The Andy Griffith days are over. You can't leave home with your doors unlocked. You damn sure can't let your children get out of your sight. I'm not a hunter or a gun fanatic but I do own one just in case.

I have two kids and neither one of them know I have it. I don't keep it loaded because of my kids. Hell the bullets and the gun are in two different parts of the house well hidden. I guess if a burglar showed up I'd have to ask him if he minded waiting a sec so I could load up.

We have all heard noises outside and went to take a look. I feel a little better going out with something other than a flashlight and a stick.

I'm glad you at least have a gun, but an unloaded firearm with ammunition in the other room is about as useful as a 2 pound paperweight when it comes to home defense.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

If the kid is properly trained, neither.

The whole kids and firearms argument, to me, is about as weak as it gets. It sure hits the old heart strings when you bring up the kids, but it's not really grounded in much.

When I was about 5 years old, my father took me aside, pulled out his old .22 Colt Woodsman, unloaded it and let me hold it. He told me where he kept it, why he kept it and explained how it worked. He then told me that if I ever wanted to hold it or see it to just ask him, any time of the night or day, and he'd do it with me. At the age of about 8 he took me to the range and taught me to shoot, and also fire three rounds while neither of us had ear protection on, so that I would know what a live fired weapon sounds like. I never snuck into his room to handle a gun, because all I had to do was ask.

Basically the firearm wasn't shrouded in secrecy, locked up, put away and never talked about. That amount of shady secrecy is going to guarantee that a kid will go looking for it.

Yes, untrained, unparented kids find guns and do stupid stuff. They can also grab the car keys and go drive down the road, or drink a bottle of Draino, or stab themselves in the eye with a knife, but I don't hear anyone arguing that nobody should have cars, knives or Draino.

There are some decent arguments against everyone having guns, but "the children" is not one of them.

But you're assuming the child is properly trained. You can't assume that all parents are going to be responsible about guns and train their kids like you were trained. It's up to the parents, and if the parents are irresponsible, like so many are, the poor kid is subjected to a situation over which he has no control.

It's not like a 7 year old is going to go out and seek training. If his dad isn't as good a parent as your father was to you, he's up a creek. When it comes to adults accidentally killing themselves because they have no training, I have little sympathy, because you reap what you sow. But a 7 year old? He's the victim of poor parenting, and you can't dismiss that with the old 'you reap what you sow' argument. The children need to be protected from their own parents at times.

I don't know how you do that effectively, mind you. But I definitely disagree that kids aren't a valid argument against owning a gun. In your situation, I'll agree. But not for most.

I still maintain that moving away from crime to safer neighborhoods is the most effective way to provide a safe life for you and your family.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But you're assuming the child is properly trained. You can't assume that all parents are going to be responsible about guns and train their kids like you were trained. It's up to the parents, and if the parents are irresponsible, like so many are, the poor kid is subjected to a situation over which he has no control.

It's not like a 7 year old is going to go out and seek training. If his dad isn't as good a parent as your father was to you, he's up a creek. When it comes to adults accidentally killing themselves because they have no training, I have little sympathy, because you reap what you sow. But a 7 year old? He's the victim of poor parenting, and you can't dismiss that with the old 'you reap what you sow' argument. The children need to be protected from their own parents at times.

I don't know how you do that effectively, mind you. But I definitely disagree that kids aren't a valid argument against owning a gun. In your situation, I'll agree. But not for most.

I still maintain that moving away from crime to safer neighborhoods is the most effective way to provide a safe life for you and your family.

From that standpoint I would agree with you. Irresponsible adults should not own guns, and irresponsible adults with untrained children should not own guns.

They should also not own about a thousand other common household items.

You don't seem to be arguing for a total gun ban, so I'm not saying it from that standpoint. So many times, though, people argue that all guns should be banned "for the children," which is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Working in the projects I saw young kids being the victims on a regular of poor nutrition, emotional, physical and sexual abuse far more often than. No, those aren't life ending the way a firearm can be, but when idiots have kids, bad stuff happens. You are absolutely right that stupid parents put their kids in situations where the kid is a victim. That's going to happen whether a gun is there or not. The kids life is a clusterfuck at that point and is probably exposed to any number of dangerous situations day in and day out.

When I speak of the "average citizen" having a gun for self defense, I'm really more referring to your lower-middle class and up folks. People with a decent job, provide for a family, kids go to school, parents work hard. What I would characterize as the bulk of America.

Yes, I agree that some idiot living in a hole who lets their kid do whatever they want all day and never parents them, absolutely should not have a gun. Or a car.

[Ocliw]

Originally Posted by mheisig

I'm glad you at least have a gun, but an unloaded firearm with ammunition in the other room is about as useful as a 2 pound paperweight when it comes to home defense.

Lol...true. I bought it years ago before I had kids. I'm just lulled into a false sense of security that I'll never need it. Nice neighborhood,low crime area, etc.. which I know doesn't mean crap these days.

[TheHolyGibbs]

Never in my wildest dreams did I think there would be soooo many worms in this here can...gaaaaawwwwwlllleey gee whiz.

I think my best bet is to

-make my neighbor with kids buy a gun, ask him to rush right over if he ever hears anything strange, and make sure my kids never ever play over there

-always live in the poorest looking house on the whole block

-get a German Shepherd with the mange and a drooling problem.

[EternalEnigma21]

Big dogs are actually an excellent source of home protection, actually. Dogs are a huge deterrent to burglars, whether you're home or not....

As far as handguns go, my sister was at VT, where they don't allow handguns. While she wasn't directly around the action, had a trained person been willing to carry the responsibility of protecting their peers been there that day, the death toll would certainly not have been as bad. Not only that, but if more of these Mass Murder/Suicide shooters were taken out quickly, I would speculate there would not be as many copy-cats.

When I read the story of the two girls shot at the mega-chuch, and the security lady popping him a few times before he offed himself, I realized that the cops can't be everywhere at once. I grew up around guns and even members of my family in the various military branches are in awe of my knowledge and shooting skills, being a civilian.

I decided to get my concealed carry permit 2 weeks ago. I now work nights and we just let go a guy who is very much a loner, pathological liar, listens to death metal, lives with mom, etc... and always talks about guns. I've been wearing my CZ-75B cocked and locked on my hip since we let him go.... I can't shake the feeling that he completely fits the bill of one of these guys.


I'm not saying everyone should have a gun, but I think if you're a responsible person and willing to accept that role, you should. The Good Samaritan Law is a great law, and I am greatly saddened by the state of this country, but I will not turn a blind eye to it and will do what I can to help the situation.

In my opinion banning guns to prevent gun crimes is as stupid as banning the internet to prevent cyber-sexual predators and identity theft.

Just my

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Boy Dmek, do you ever live in the wrong neck of the woods. How's it feel being the only democrat in Lancaster?

right now its feeling pretty darn good, considering how much of a mess this administration has made of our beautiful country

[That Guy]

he listens to death metal???? must be a serial killer waiting to strike :P

sorry, but its actually much more mainstream now with in flames, dark tranquility, etc selling millions of cds.

I mean, i'm a bit of a loner and fully trained on assault rifles with access too, but my friends (also liking the death metal) and i aren't ever going to go shoot some place up.

i know that's not really what you meant, but it's really not bad music. black metal is the crap about burning curches and killing people and loving satan. it just sounds like noise.

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by That Guy

he listens to death metal???? must be a serial killer waiting to strike :P

sorry, but its actually much more mainstream now with in flames, dark tranquility, etc selling millions of cds.

I mean, i'm a bit of a loner and fully trained on assault rifles with access too, but my friends (also liking the death metal) and i aren't ever going to go shoot some place up.

i know that's not really what you meant, but it's really not bad music. black metal is the crap about burning curches and killing people and loving satan. it just sounds like noise.

I'm not pigeon holing a group of people based on musical preference, but I'd feel a bit more at ease if his taste in music was willie nelson or some shit. If this guy were driving around listening to MMMMBOP I wouldn't give him a second thought, know what I mean?


and you mention friends... this guy has none. he's got serious issues.

[EternalEnigma21]

for those of you who are glock fans, Im seriously considering sending my Model 22 .40 off to these guys

they do have redskins stuff...

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

for those of you who are glock fans, Im seriously considering sending my Model 22 .40 off to these guys

they do have redskins stuff...

That's crazy...never seen that before.

And no, I'm not a Glock fan. Can't stand 'em