Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

It would be no surprise to me if it's true that Vinny wants to keep the guaranteed money lower. He has to be concerned about the team's cap situation and knows he needs to keep as much room available to maneuver, or he's going to lose out on free agency altogether.

On a 6 year deal, $12 million guaranteed would take up $2 million in 2009 cap space. $16 million would take up $2.7 million. That's a big difference, an amount that would allow for one additional quality-depth guy in free agency.

It's also quite possible that the Redskins are betting Hall won't be able to do better. Revenue streams are in decline for NFL franchises due to the economy. There may be a lot of teams simply unwilling to pay it.

The way I see it, we should be thanking Vinny here. He's trying to keep a cool head, locking good players up for a reasonable amount. Would you rather he spend $20 million guaranteed on a Nate Clements type like the 49ers did?

Absent a new CBA though, signing bonus money from contracts signed from here through Week 10 of the 2009 season cannot prorate money past 2012.

So this is way more significant than a .7 million difference. A 12 million SB prorated becomes a 3 million hit this year. 16 million SB becomes a 4 million hit this year.

And then the 30% rule makes contracts in this climate a general mess.

I guess the bottom line is that if you combine this with the economy, and this great free agent class is going to get grossly underpaid. It makes sense to free up as much room as possible and get in on the action.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Hahaha, I was thinking the same thing. We always gripe about overpaying, now we're trying to be somewhat reasonable and it's a problem suddenly? Let's not forget BigHairedAristocrat seems to have a pretty negative view about most Skins-related stuff. I like how he puts the phrase "low-balling" in quotes, yet he was the one who said it in the first place.

Sorry for the confusion, i put low-balling" in quotes because at first glance, how can 12M garaunteed and about 50M total over 6 years be considered low-balling....

But when you consider what other starting CBs are making and where Hall falls when compared to them, 12M is almost insulting. Chris Gamble got 23M garaunteed and i honestly don't think Gamble is a better corner than Hall. Gamble benefits from an excellent pass rush more than anything else. His time in Oakland (where he did not fit the scheme) aside, Hall has been a top corner his entire career. IMO he is worth 16M.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Sorry for the confusion, i put low-balling" in quotes because at first glance, how can 12M garaunteed and about 50M total over 6 years be considered low-balling....

But when you consider what other starting CBs are making and where Hall falls when compared to them, 12M is almost insulting. Chris Gamble got 23M garaunteed and i honestly don't think Gamble is a better corner than Hall. Gamble benefits from an excellent pass rush more than anything else. His time in Oakland (where he did not fit the scheme) aside, Hall has been a top corner his entire career. IMO he is worth 16M.

ohh, gotcha...

As far as him being worth $16M guaranteed, I just don't know. Gamble may have been a bit overpaid, but he's very good and fits their scheme well.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

It's the Oakland days that are making him damaged goods. While Gamble, Clements, etc, might have had down years, none of them have been called locker-room cancer or have been victimized more times in a season like Hall has. I don't know if anyone remembers, but Hall was beaten more than ANY OTHER DB IN THE NFL while he was on Oakland.

I think he knows and the rest of the league knows that while the talent might still be there, he's got a lot of red flags that go with it, hence the lower initial salary.

That and the economic restrictions outlined above.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

On a 6 year deal, $12 million guaranteed would take up $2 million in 2009 cap space. $16 million would take up $2.7 million. That's a big difference, an amount that would allow for one additional quality-depth guy in free agency.

I recognize that you know more about the salary cap than i ever will, but i have to disagree with you there.

Considering Smoot is garbage, Carlos Rogers cant hold on to the ball andwants a big payday or a trade, and Shawn Springs is excellent when healthy but is old and a stiff breeze keeps him out of a game, 0.7M is well worth the investment.... especially when you consider that if we let Hall walk, it essentially forces us to keep springs at 8.5M - thats twelve times $700,000 difference in 2009 garaunteed money it would take to keep Hall here. So by your logic, if paying hall more money means losing out on one additional quality-depth guy, then letting hall walk will cost us twelve of those guys....

On the other hand, if we take the long-term view and give hall his money, we have more flexibility in deciding what we want to do with Springs, and can secure a starting CB spot up for the next 6 years or so.

I understand we have had a problem with overspending in the past... but everyone forgets we also had problems with letting great players walk because we tried to low-ball them. In my view, the approach we are taking with Hall is scarily similar to the approach we took with Antonio Pierce and Ryan Clark. We could have kept both those players if we had just paid them what they were worth, instead of playing hardball and letting them taste free agency. We let both of those guys go, and they got respectable contracts with their new teams and went on to superbowls... and what have we done since?

Yes, there is a danger in overpaying. But Hall isnt asking us to overpay him. Hes not even asking for much more than what we're willing to pay. What he's asking for is fair. IMO letting Hall walk because of a 0.7M/year difference would be a mistake of epic proportions.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I don't think we played hardball with Antonio Pierce. NY paid a pretty good contract for him and while I think GW had SOME hand in letting him walk, we definitely would have been a little more strapped now if he were on the team with a similar contract to NY's.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GMScud

ohh, gotcha...

As far as him being worth $16M guaranteed, I just don't know. Gamble may have been a bit overpaid, but he's very good and fits their scheme well.

I agree with you that Gambel is overpaid (grossly so IMO), but that doesnt change the fact that it "raised the bar" for what every FA corner is going to expect. Salaries are always going to escalate and we need to keep that in mind. If Hall were 2-3 years older or had ever had discipline problems in the lockerroom or on the field, and we didnt have issues with every single one of our other CB positions right now, I would be singing a different tune.

But to me, Hall isnt asking for anything unreasonable. Negotiating is one thing, but squabbling with him over 4M garaunteed when his his offer is very fair, could be interpreted by Hall as insulting and disrespectful.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

But to me, Hall isnt asking for anything unreasonable. Negotiating is one thing, but squabbling with him over 4M garaunteed when his his offer is very fair, could be interpreted by Hall as insulting and disrespectful.

Couldn't the Redskins say the same thing?

Sure, he came in and played well for that half of a season or so he was here, but truly he needs to prove he can be mature AND be consistent before he gets any huge money deals...

[WaldSkins]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

It's the Oakland days that are making him damaged goods. While Gamble, Clements, etc, might have had down years, none of them have been called locker-room cancer or have been victimized more times in a season like Hall has. I don't know if anyone remembers, but Hall was beaten more than ANY OTHER DB IN THE NFL while he was on Oakland.

I think he knows and the rest of the league knows that while the talent might still be there, he's got a lot of red flags that go with it, hence the lower initial salary.

That and the economic restrictions outlined above.

I don't really consider him a locker room cancer. He played for a terrible Atlanta team last year then went to an even worse Raider team. When he came here he came to a team that has the talent to win. Oakland is where players go to die, they call it the black hole because that's what it is a shithole. That team is probaly the worst ran team in the NFL and the only cancer that team has is Al Davis.

[gaudiomatt]

It makes incredible sense to low ball deangelo hall because he's not being low balled, 12m guranteed is all this guy is worth he's not going to be getting a big payday in free agency his true colors are shown and he's a good corner but not elite

[gaudiomatt]

I also think it's amazing that people think carlos rogers being disgruntled is a reason to run him out of town, he's disgruntled because with absolutley no explanation reason or logic we are trying to run him out of town.

[gaudiomatt]

How is cutting shawn springs, resigning denagelo hall and carlos rogers who both have proven they can play at pro bowl levels at times not the only option this team is seeking. Shawn Springs is probably given us the least return for his salary on this team and why would we not be trying to get rid of him instead of our young CB who's just coming into his own in this league. On top of our FA pickup who we can get at a reasonable price.

[gaudiomatt]

And for rogers on the interceptions, at least he's not running into people to prevent easy interceptions on top of not getting any like springs.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by WaldSkins

I don't really consider him a locker room cancer. He played for a terrible Atlanta team last year then went to an even worse Raider team. When he came here he came to a team that has the talent to win. Oakland is where players go to die, they call it the black hole because that's what it is a shithole. That team is probaly the worst ran team in the NFL and the only cancer that team has is Al Davis.

While that's true to an extent, there are still players like that DB who I DO NOT feel like looking up who still performs well on the Raiders. I think by comparison he looked pretty good when at least one DB was playing well for them.

[WaldSkins]

Originally Posted by gaudiomatt

I also think it's amazing that people think carlos rogers being disgruntled is a reason to run him out of town, he's disgruntled because with absolutley no explanation reason or logic we are trying to run him out of town.

I don't think we were trying to run him out of town, he was just not starting at corner so he was whining about it. Personally id like him to start opposite of Hall this year but you never know with this team.