Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

He has improved alot and is one of the hardest hitters in the NFL right now. For the price, id take him over Landry in a heartbeat (assuming we had our #6overall pick back.)

This is somewhat unrelated, but I don't like Landry and Horton in their current roles. They both need to play SS. If we had the same corners we had now, i'd take Clark (FS) and Horton (SS) with our 2007 1st rounder back and used on a DE or DT over our current configuration and be deliriously happy. For what its worth, I'd also trade Horton for a 2nd rounder in a heartbeat if someone offered as much.

This team simly does not know how to select (and keep) the right defensive players and then use them effectively. The failure is two-fold. Its a failure in Vinny in giving Blache (and previously Williams) the right personnel for their system and its a failure in Blache (and previously Williams) in failing to adapt their system to fit the players Vinny gave them. Now that I think of it, the problems plagued our offense too. In the end, we've hired coaches to run a certain system, but we have never given them the right players to make their system work. Great coaches adapt their systems to their players, but it would be a whole lot easier for the FO to just pick the right players in the first place.

Don't forget that things would be different in our defense if Sean Taylor was still alive. I would say that the team did know how to select a good player when they picked ST. I mean this conversation about Clark would not be happening if we had the ST/Landry combination at safety.

Also, people forget that Clark is playing alongside Polamalu, so I'm sure that adds to him (Clark) being a good player now.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by horny4zorny-nohomo

am i the only one that thinks jason taylor is bad luck

@ the dolphins 1-15

redskinz he got hurt, and only 3.5 sacks even though the previous year he had over 15...
and we were 8-8 after a 6-2 start with a rookie coach.. if we get him back i hope he gets 3x as much sacks!

Isn't this the second time youve mentioned that? Was he bad luck in his 7winning seasons with the Dolphins with 5 playoff appearances? And where did you get over 15 sacks from?

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Isn't this the second time youve mentioned that? Was he bad luck in his 7winning seasons with the Dolphins with 5 playoff appearances? And where did you get over 15 sacks from?

Good observation SS, Taylor had 11 sacks his previous year.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Don't forget that things would be different in our defense if Sean Taylor was still alive. I would say that the team did know how to select a good player when they picked ST. I mean this conversation about Clark would not be happening if we had the ST/Landry combination at safety.

Also, people forget that Clark is playing alongside Polamalu, so I'm sure that adds to him (Clark) being a good player now.

Good point on Taylor, but we would have been facing a different set of problems if he hadnt been murdered. We likely wouldnt have been able to keep Taylor here... or if we did, it would have cost us bigtime and other areas of our team would have suffered. (on the other hand, it could have forced the FO to make some tough choices, like cutting some of our older vets last year and not extending guys like Thomas and Portis... but that would be giving Cerrato too much credit.)

anyway, just remember that Clark was a good player when he was playing alongside sean Taylor too. Its not like he THAT much better of a player now... he was always good. He fit the system we ran. I imagine one of the reasons we let him go was that we wanted to move Taylor to FS, but in doing so, we created a huge hole that idiotboy Cerrato decided to fill by signing ArchDeluxe to a ridiculous contract - then when that was a colossal failure, we overcompensated by picking Landry.

[RMSkins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Good point on Taylor, but we would have been facing a different set of problems if he hadnt been murdered. We likely wouldnt have been able to keep Taylor here... or if we did, it would have cost us bigtime and other areas of our team would have suffered. (on the other hand, it could have forced the FO to make some tough choices, like cutting some of our older vets last year and not extending guys like Thomas and Portis... but that would be giving Cerrato too much credit.)

anyway, just remember that Clark was a good player when he was playing alongside sean Taylor too. Its not like he THAT much better of a player now... he was always good. He fit the system we ran. I imagine one of the reasons we let him go was that we wanted to move Taylor to FS, but in doing so, we created a huge hole that idiotboy Cerrato decided to fill by signing ArchDeluxe to a ridiculous contract - then when that was a colossal failure, we overcompensated by picking Landry.

I dislike Cerrato as much as the next guy, but blaming Arch Deluxe on him is a mistake. Gregg Williams was the one pulling for Archuleta.

[redskinjim]

we blew that one antonio peirce was another mistake

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

He has improved alot and is one of the hardest hitters in the NFL right now. For the price, id take him over Landry in a heartbeat (assuming we had our #6overall pick back.)

This is somewhat unrelated, but I don't like Landry and Horton in their current roles. They both need to play SS. If we had the same corners we had now, i'd take Clark (FS) and Horton (SS) with our 2007 1st rounder back and used on a DE or DT over our current configuration and be deliriously happy. For what its worth, I'd also trade Horton for a 2nd rounder in a heartbeat if someone offered as much.

This team simly does not know how to select (and keep) the right defensive players and then use them effectively. The failure is two-fold. Its a failure in Vinny in giving Blache (and previously Williams) the right personnel for their system and its a failure in Blache (and previously Williams) in failing to adapt their system to fit the players Vinny gave them. Now that I think of it, the problems plagued our offense too. In the end, we've hired coaches to run a certain system, but we have never given them the right players to make their system work. Great coaches adapt their systems to their players, but it would be a whole lot easier for the FO to just pick the right players in the first place. its not that the FO NEVER picks the right players, it just does it about 50% of the time. thats simply not good enough.

Clark is a solid player but nothing special. This is just another example of people overrating other team's players while underrating our own.

Correct me if I'm wrong but over the past few years the D has pretty much carried this team, so they must be doing something right on that side of the ball. It's amazing they can continue to overcome these horrible personnel decisions and bad coaching.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Clark is a solid player but nothing special. This is just another example of people overrating other team's players while underrating our own.

Correct me if I'm wrong but over the past few years the D has pretty much carried this team, so they must be doing something right on that side of the ball. It's amazing they can continue to overcome these horrible personnel decisions and bad coaching.

Agreed Matty. It's not like Clark left, the defense fell apart, and they've been at the bottom of NFL defenses. Once again, some posts here are just beating that dead horse of bashing the front office on things that happened in the past.

[Son Of Man]

Everyone needs to get over Ryan Clark being let go. The guy is not even a pro-bowl caliber player. In fact in his last season as a Redskin, his signature play was being stiff-armed to the ground by Tomlinson on LT's way to a Td run in overtime that sealed a vistory for the Chargers. I'll take a young Horton over an aging Clark any day.

BTW- There is no way the organization would have let Sean Taylor go if he were still alive. Portis and Moss would have helped prevent it. Danny would have made him the highest paid safety in history, deservingly so.

[44ever]

I think the one point that can't be desputed is the fact that while our defense didn't fall apart, it didn't become dominate either. We have had to double or in some cases triple our efforts to fill holes we had already plugged solidly.

The FO was in such a hurry to win now that it influenced terrible draft and trade stratedgies. And now the mistake(s) have finally been realized. So what will FO do now? Well basically the same mistakes but not for the sake of the instant win, but for trying to play mistake catch up.

Because desicions on JT and others have cost us to give up draft pics, VC will now try to compensate by trading down. Again not being in position to comfortably pick from our current slots. Probably signing guys we would have normally pass on if we still had the resorces too.

So yeah Clark leaving didn't kill our D. But just imagine how much better we would be with him. Not to mention the domino effect choices like this cause.

Vinny still has some fall out to deal with

The FO needs to develop patience and forsight

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by redsk1

It's not just letting Ryan Clark go. Those mistakes happen from time to time w/ every team, well most teams.

It's then replacing him w/ AA. That's the kick in the a**. I said it before, but whoever made that decision should be fired immediately. VC made that decision by the way per VC.

VC is taking the bullets for Greg Williams. This was a Greg Williams decision all the way. I really get sick of hearing everyone dump on the FO for Lloyd, ARE & Arch. These were bad signings, pushed by Al Saunders, and Greg Williams. Gibbs as a manager was giving his assistants the tools they supposedly needed. These signings went south and Saunders and Williams are gone. WTF else does anyone want.

Saunders and Williams had Gibbs' support and neither DS or VC was going to go counter to Gibbs' wishes. Had they done that, they hysteria here would've been more over the top than it already is sometimes.

When Gibbs left the big questions was, why didn't GW get the job? The Arch thing and personality conflicts with the FO were probably the major reason. Hindsight on that looks pretty good now IMO, how about some props to the FO for getting that one right.

Bottom line is we have the correct structure in place. Zorn has input as every coach should, but the bottom line in player selection falls squarely on VCs. We can't fully evaluate Thomas, Kelly, Davis, their progression in 2009 will be key though. Tyron, Brooks, probably bad, but they were 4/5 rounders and many get cut across all NFL teams. We needed a punter and the #1 punter coming out of college wasn't a bad pick, he just didn't make the transition. Colt Brennan is the next Joe Montana / Tom Brady in waiting (SARCASM ALERT) and I'd say Horton was a pretty good pick. We didn't break the bank in FA, and the Taylor signing was a 1 year rental that didn't pan out. It was a risk taken under duress anyway. No way we could've addressed all our needs in one draft, and when we picked Thomas the players targeted on the DL were already taken. The Davis pick is still a bit of a head-scratcher, IMO there were still solid players on the DL, CB and OL available, but I'm willing to leave the jury out on that one until 2009/2010.

Let's not under-estimate the severity of the blow losing ST was either. He was signed to a reasonable contract and was arguably a top 5 defensive player in the league. He's taken away with zero compensation....that's a huge void to fill in so many ways. Can we have just a small bit of patience and see what happens this off-season. If we can fill a few holes there's no reason we can't be a contender in 2009, and in 2008 were still in the chase for the playoffs going into Week 16.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

VC is taking the bullets for Greg Williams. This was a Greg Williams decision all the way. I really get sick of hearing everyone dump on the FO for Lloyd, ARE & Arch. These were bad signings, pushed by Al Saunders, and Greg Williams. Gibbs as a manager was giving his assistants the tools they supposedly needed. These signings went south and Saunders and Williams are gone. WTF else does anyone want.

Saunders and Williams had Gibbs' support and neither DS or VC was going to go counter to Gibbs' wishes. Had they done that, they hysteria here would've been more over the top than it already is sometimes.

When Gibbs left the big questions was, why didn't GW get the job? The Arch thing and personality conflicts with the FO were probably the major reason. Hindsight on that looks pretty good now IMO, how about some props to the FO for getting that one right.

Bottom line is we have the correct structure in place. Zorn has input as every coach should, but the bottom line in player selection falls squarely on VCs. We can't fully evaluate Thomas, Kelly, Davis, their progression in 2009 will be key though. Tyron, Brooks, probably bad, but they were 4/5 rounders and many get cut across all NFL teams. We needed a punter and the #1 punter coming out of college wasn't a bad pick, he just didn't make the transition. Colt Brennan is the next Joe Montana / Tom Brady in waiting (SARCASM ALERT) and I'd say Horton was a pretty good pick. We didn't break the bank in FA, and the Taylor signing was a 1 year rental that didn't pan out. It was a risk taken under duress anyway. No way we could've addressed all our needs in one draft, and when we picked Thomas the players targeted on the DL were already taken. The Davis pick is still a bit of a head-scratcher, IMO there were still solid players on the DL, CB and OL available, but I'm willing to leave the jury out on that one until 2009/2010.

Let's not under-estimate the severity of the blow losing ST was either. He was signed to a reasonable contract and was arguably a top 5 defensive player in the league. He's taken away with zero compensation....that's a huge void to fill in so many ways. Can we have just a small bit of patience and see what happens this off-season. If we can fill a few holes there's no reason we can't be a contender in 2009, and in 2008 were still in the chase for the playoffs going into Week 16.

I think people like to overlook the fact that Gibbs was in some way, shape, or form involved in some of these bad acquisitions. Don't get me wrong, Gibbs did great things for this franchise during his second stint, and I will not overlook that nor am I trying to undermine them. However, a lot things that people like to blame solely on Vinny and Snyder, were done either because of Gibbs or with support. Let's not forget that Snyder gave Gibbs a blank check on decision making, and as it has been stated before, DS or VC would never have gone against Gibbs wishes.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

That happens to every team in the league, I mean look at Randy Moss, sucked in Oakland, did a helluva job in New England. Hall sucked in Oakland, did a good job for us. (And come to think of it, it could be way worst...we could be Oakland)

Alright, I'll go with that.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I think people like to overlook the fact that Gibbs was in some way, shape, or form involved in some of these bad acquisitions. Don't get me wrong, Gibbs did great things for this franchise during his second stint, and I will not overlook that nor am I trying to undermine them. However, a lot things that people like to blame solely on Vinny and Snyder, were done either because of Gibbs or with support. Let's not forget that Snyder gave Gibbs a blank check on decision making, and as it has been stated before, DS or VC would never have gone against Gibbs wishes.

It was a great group of people with everyone getting people they wanted: Gibbs-Brunell, Saunders-Llloyd, Blache-Carter, Bugel-Kendall, Williams-Archuleta. But interestingly enough, Cerrato never really made a huge push for anyone. But it's a new era now, let's see how things turn out.

[over the mountain]

the clark issue reminds me of the brad johnson-jeff george deal (is this going back to far?). we had a capable guy who wanted to stay with us, we didnt sign him to a reasonable contract, then turn around and pay another less capable guy a boat load of money.

lame post by me, i know . . .

go skins!!