Second look at Ramsey

[SUNRA]

Originally Posted by That Guy

umm... the score was 20-7 when he came in and 20-14 at the end... he didn't lose it, he just didn't win it... and ramsey threw to where coles should have been... thats how routes in the nfl work. You said he was held up before ramsey threw it, but unless you were there, i see no way from the tv angles you could have seen what coles was or wasn't doing when ramsey let go...

I was there. Sorry the TV angles didn't get that part.

[Hogskin]

My problem with Gardner was not this game (not even close). It is his pattern ever since he was drafted, of choking - dropping easy passes in critical situations - 3rd down passes that would make a 1st, and TD's when we are behind. His occasional circus catch does not offset this. Unfortunately, like Norv Turner's occasional wins, it just enables him to keep his job.

[That Guy]

hogskin, just cause they started winning with him doesn't mean he's awesome, it could have been that the last guy was just REALLY bad... though i'd agree that he's a very important (and good) part of the offense... him and T.O. are the #1 and #2, and they seem to be able to make things go just fine...

anyone who wouldn't take daunte or mcnabb over ramsey is silly... though i wish daunte didn't fumble so damn much

for leftwich, i don't know, i've never been on BL's bandwagon, and i've watched him a couple times, but not enough to really know if he's worth much...

i would take ramsey over flutie, testes, boller, feely, warner, grossman, dorsey, mccown, rattay, and maybe leftwich or bledsoe, and i wouldn't trade him for oldies like gannon or maddox (not that old i know)... i know that gives him benefit of the doubt...

as far as 2nd stringers, gus, roth., or collins would be decent... manning is in a different class (money/talent wise), and for a future elite QB is still raw (his bro came in much more polished)...

that about as extensive as i can be without really refering to stat charts, tape and the like...

[SUNRA]

[QUOTE=Paintrain]First of all, you can't blame Ramsey for losing the game.. Was he in when Portis fumbled and it was taken in for a TD? Was he in when Brunell threw his INT? Was he at fault for Portis's other fumble? He made 2 bad throws and Coles ran the wrong route on the other one. To blame him for losing the game is silly.. I agree, he should be farther along than he is, let's see how he does while Brunell is out and coming in with a game plan for him and 0-0 on the scoreboard rather than coming in down 20-7 in the 2nd half.[/QUOTE

I can blame Ramsey for losing a game just as much as I can praise him for winning a game. The problem you have is facing the reality that a work in progress in really a work of digress. Show me won QB who hasn't had to learn a new system every year. Every year new plays are introduced to the QB. If the QB can not execute those plays does he continue to start? Hell no. He's benched like Ramsey was benched. Ramsey had all training camp to get at least the mechanics of a QB down and he still comes out holding on to the ball. Lastly, against Dallas we know what they are going to bring. They will step it up a notch or two. If Ramsey isn't ready in practice he will get buried in this game. And then none of you will have to worry about defending his mistakes.

[That Guy]

and if we win you'll eat the crow?>

[SUNRA]

Originally Posted by That Guy

and if we win you'll eat the crow?>

I was born in Washington, D.C. at D.C.General Hospital. The hospital is right across the street from RFK Stadium. I'll eat the crow, just like I unfortunately had to shake the hand of Giants fans as I left the stadium.

[Hogskin]

Sunra, your post brought back some great memories. In the 60's I was doing software support for IBM, and DC General was one of my many accounts. Spent a lot of time there. AND spent a LOT of time at REDSKIN games in the 50's through 80's. Sure do miss going out to the stadium. Some great Sundays. And like you said earlier, you sure see a lot from a good seat that the cameras miss.

[bedlamVR]

I think one of the key things here in Mattys origional post is that it wasn't down to Ramsey alone recivers dropped balls/didn't finish routes etc.

When he came into the game at 20-7 his only option was to try and win the game had he done nothing not thrown and interception and not turn the ball over yet the scoreline stayed the same would that have been better? At least with him in the game we had a chance .

As for the comment about every QB has to learn a new system every year you will find the sucessful teams are the ones whe the OC and offensive philosophy stay the same. Sure the Vikes offence for example will have new wrinkles in it every year, but with the same coach and philosophy these wrinkles will be minor changes building on what was working last year. Players have confidence in a winning system and execute it far better. When you undergo such dramatic change in personel as the Skins did this year then it is like starting afresh. Many people point at the changes the Giants underwent this year also yet they really didn't win this game as opposed the the Skins loosing it.

Sure players have training camp to get the fundementals of any new system down but until you get into the season and against live fire it is hard for any players to translate it into game play .

[RedskinPete]

Ramsey has a long way to go. Under Gibbs he could be a very good QB. Burnell if younger would also be what we need . But he is not. His arm is weak and is moving down not up. What we need from him is to teach Ramsey! I remember another Redskin QB that looked so bad the fans wanted to run him out of town. He worked out fine Joe T!!!! So I hope Ramsey makes it because if not Burnell will not make it all the way through a season and we will need to look for someone else next year!

[BleedBurgundy]

Maybe I'm just a hopeful Patrick Ramsey Apologist ass, but- When Ramsey came in the game for an already injured Brunell (ok, who had week two in the pool?) I felt like he gave our offense a chance to win, (something I haven't gotten from Brunell.) I think that when Brunell was brought in, it was as a veteran QB who would not LOSE games for us. No one expected him to come in here and light it up. But, if not for stellar play from our defense in week one, you have to say Brunell gave it his best shot at losing us that game by fumbling near our endzone. I just don't see him being able to put the team on his back and win any for us. His whole value is based upon experience and decision making and I don't believe that with what we've seen from both QB's so far that you can give a decided advantage to either in the decision making phase of the game. As for PR, 3 picks when you're forcing the ball to try and win as the clock ticks down? Give me a break, yeah it's not great, but what do you expect, that's the time of the game when you have to gamble to win. I was just as dumbstruck by that last INT as ya'll were, but I understood the first two. Bottom line, Ramsey has physical skills Brunell doesn't. Brunell has experience that PR lacks. But if we don't see the benefit of that experience on Sundays, what good does it do?

Anyway, we played a 100% awful game on offense. Period. If we had lucked out, scored and won, would you all feel a lot better? I don't know about you, but I was screaming at my tv during that game. I'm not down on this team, but sometimes a good ass beating isn't the worst thing for a team to get, better than a cheap win that over inflates the collective ego.

[joecrisp]

Originally Posted by bedlamVR

As for the comment about every QB has to learn a new system every year you will find the sucessful teams are the ones whe the OC and offensive philosophy stay the same. Sure the Vikes offence for example will have new wrinkles in it every year, but with the same coach and philosophy these wrinkles will be minor changes building on what was working last year. Players have confidence in a winning system and execute it far better. When you undergo such dramatic change in personel as the Skins did this year then it is like starting afresh. Many people point at the changes the Giants underwent this year also yet they really didn't win this game as opposed the the Skins loosing it.

Sure players have training camp to get the fundementals of any new system down but until you get into the season and against live fire it is hard for any players to translate it into game play .

I was getting ready to post the same things, but I'm glad to see you beat me to it!

Ramsey has had perhaps the bumpiest introduction to the NFL that any quarterback could undergo. Spurrier's impact on this kid is going to take some time to undo, but if any coaching staff can do it, this one can.

As for project QBs being a thing of the past, let's not be so quick to jump to conclusions based on Tom Brady's stellar ascent to NFL God status. Tom Brady is an exceptional player on an exceptional team with an exceptional coaching staff. To look at him and expect all QBs to be measured by his standard is a little unrealistic. It's like saying, "Okay, now any quarterback we draft must take us to 2 Super Bowls in 3 years, or we'll just have to drop him and move in another direction."

[MTK]

I just don't understand how people can expect Ramsey to come in to camp, learn a whole new system that has an entirely different philosophy from Spurrier's, and also relearn his mechanics on top of that, and expect him to be functioning at a high level right off the bat. It's not like Brunell has the offense down pat either. And he's an 11 year vet who's been around the block.

Like JC said, people want to keep pointing at exceptions to the rule like Brady and question why Ramsey can't make the same instant transition. Sorry folks, guys like Brady are rare, and like I said, exceptions to the rule.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Patrick Ramsey did NOT lose the game on Sunday. Let's not get carried away here. That loss was a total team effort.

Patrick Ramsey did NOT look good in the game on Sunday. If you want to say that he had great footwork in the pocket and a timed release of the ball and is ready for his nomination to Canton Ohio, you are free to do so. You are also getting carried away in the other direction.

Gardner's drops were horrendous and did not help the Skins and made Ramsey's efforts less than wonderful. By the same token, Gardner's catch on Ramsey's "50 yard heave" was a circus catch. The ball was overthrown and Cardner put the Skins in a position to score with his extraordinary effort. It was not nearly enough.

What Ramsey lacks is consistency - same for Gardner. Is that lack of experience or lack of concentration or what? I don't read minds; I don't know. Here is what I do know. In September 2004, Patrick Ramsey is not capable of being the starting QB for an NFL football team that expects to go deep into the playoffs. Maybe a lightbulb will go off in his head and he'll "get it" all of a sudden and lead this team somewhere positive this year. But until I see on field evidence of that "got it" position, I'm not going to feel very confident if he as to start the next few games.

Kyle Boller is a second year QB with limited experience. He has played about as well as Ramsey has. Is anyone here ready to anoint Boller as a great QB yet? I didn't think so.

Marc Bulger has about the same experience base as Ramsey. Which one is better right now? Neither is star quality, but if you think Ramsey is better, you are deluding yourself.

Rex Grossman has significantly LESS experience than Ramsey. Who is the better starting QB FOR NEXT SUNDAY ?

How about AJ Feeley? I think I prefer Ramsey, but not by much?

Do not even put Ramsey in the same paragraph with Harrington or Carr as of September 2004. It makes no sense to do that.

And if you want to revel in the fact that Couch and McNown are out of the NFL (as is Akili Smith from that same draft), please do not forget to recall that Donovan McNabb and Duante Culpepper are still around and seem to have "gotten it" a whole lot sooner than Ramsey and those other guys. Or is someone here about to say that he'd rather have Ramsey over McNabb and/or Culpepper?

I was merely pointing out Ramsey's footwork and release because others have said he hasn't improved in that area, don't confuse that for a nomination for Canton.

Right now Bulger is better than Ramsey, Feeley isn't, Grossman isn't, as for Carr and Harrington of course it's not fair to compare that trio, Carr and Harrington are the unquestioned franchise QB's, their teams have built the offenses around them, we haven't shown the same commitment to Ramsey just yet.

But just for the sake of comparing the numbers, Ramsey's does hold up pretty well when you look at each QB's first 16 starts.

[Riggo44]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

Dude, if Gardiner doesn't play like a moron, and blow the TD, I think Ramsey doesn't press and throw that last INT.

Yup!!

[SUNRA]

Ramsey has an opportunity on Monday night at home against our most hated rival to wipe the slate clean. If Gibbs runs a conservative offense and Ramsey follows his instructions we will lead at the half and Ramsey's confidence is increased. But if we come out with those busted trick plays that seem to attract turnovers, Ramsey will have a hard time. At this point, Ramsey should not be given any passing plays within 15 yards of the endzone. Our running game must establish the pace even if it ends up as a field goal. This is going to be a low scoring game just because of the urgency on both sides to win this game by any means neccessary. If Ramsey wants to lead this team into the future, there is no other opponent we could put in front of him to beat.