The Tempered Expectations Thread

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

As a head coach, I have no concerns really about Mike Shanahan. And I'm beyond giddy about Kyle Shanahan. As an organizational leader, you won't find many better than Bruce Allen.
As evaluators of talent, I'm moderately satisfied with Shanahan and Allen.

Where I have some concern is with how the team will be put together personnel wise. Allen and Shanahan both know talent when they see it, but both have a tendency sometimes to overvalue talent or, more often, realize that the talent may not match the value they're giving it but take the risk anyway. Shanahan especially is a high-risk, high-reward kind of guy. I'm interested to see how the team is "reloaded" this off-season but I guarantee there will be at least one or two serious head scratchers.

And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, or maybe in another, this is not the same situation as Marty. Not at all.

On the bolded point, i couldnt agree more. i listened to the press conference again on my way to work this morning. As Allen was speaking, i accidently hit the touch screen on my phone in just the wrong spot and the vinny cerrato/jimmy clausen interview started playing. The sound of Vinnys voice made me cringe. If I had not been at a stop light, i could very possibly have gotten into a wreck and died. the contrast between the two men could not be any more severe. I don't really beleive Allen is any better of a personnel guy than Vinny, but his leadership qualities are lightyears ahead of his predecessor. This brings me to the rest of your post...

which i also agree with completely. I think the most crucial factor to the success or failure of the shanahan regime will be whether we hire/retain the best scouts, personnel guys, etc. in our front office. if they appropriately
"narrow shanahan's shopping list," then we should be ok. in the short-term, we should be drafting/signing lots of linemen in, which are generally lower risk positions.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

What gave you the impression that Snyder would be mediating anything?

During the press conference, Shanahan was asked (I beleive by Jason Reid but i'm not sure) if the organizational structure now was similar to how it operated with Gibbs, Bethard, and Cooke, with Cooke serving as mediator. Shanahan excitedly said "I would say that's a good comparison right there."

[SmootSmack]

As for Snyder's involvement, I think some people have a really naive expectation of how involved he should be. The guy is the owner of the team. He's not some dude from Kentucky posting on a message board about the Redskins. I think people expect him to be as involved with the team as any of us.

[MTK]

I think the minute Snyder tries to take back any power is when everything will fall apart. I don't see Shanahan or Allen going for that at all.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Help me understand that statement. Correct me on my history if it's wrong. When Snyder bought the team in '99 we had records the previous 6 years of (1993) 4-12, (1994) 3-13, (1995) 6-10, (1996) 9-7, (1997) 8-7-1, (1998) 6-10. We had a record of 42-52-1 (.450) between the years after Gibbs retired and Snyder purchased the team. Since Snyder bought the team the winning percentage is .476. He's made the team the 2nd highest revenue grossing team in the world. He's tried, and failed miserably, to do anything his money can buy to improve the team and build a winner but sadly he's only brought us UP to the level of mediocre!

A lot of people act is if he took things over from Cooke and drove a Ferrari into a brick wall. Guys, we were already an IROC-Z T-top, he just tried to throw a spoiler kit onto it and sell it as a Ferrari.

Look, I am FAR from a Snyder apologist but I'm not a fan of hyperbole or media parrots either. [/rant]

Nice post. Also, Snyder (it shouldn't be forgotten) has spent 10 years as the owner. He may not know much more about Xs and Os than when he bought the team-though I suspect he does, but he definitely has more knowledge of the NFL than any of us and than he did when he first bought the team.

But anyway, not a fan of hyperbole either.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

During the press conference, Shanahan was asked (I beleive by Jason Reid but i'm not sure) if the organizational structure now was similar to how it operated with Gibbs, Bethard, and Cooke, with Cooke serving as mediator. Shanahan excitedly said "I would say that's a good comparison right there."

I can't listen to the audio but this is from the transcript

On if there are similarities between the new organizational dynamic and what existed between former owner Jack Kent Cooke, former general manager Bobby Beathard and former head coach Joe Gibbs:

"I would say that's a good comparison right there. I was lucky enough when I was an assistant coach [with Denver] in 1986 to come out here with Coach [Gibbs]. I was talking to Joe Bugel a little while ago and with the whole crew that used to be here. We came here for three days and we just talked about the NFC East and the AFC West. And we both went to the Super Bowl that year. I got a chance to get to know Joe [Gibbs], as well as the other coaches, and we've had relationships since then. That's what you want to do. As I've mentioned before, you want to get the best you can get at every position and I believe Bruce [Allen] is the best at what he does. I want people to challenge me, assistant coaches as well as personnel people. We're going to get the best guy in charge of college, the best guy in charge of pro and hopefully together we can do something special."

No mention of any sort of mediating, and he only mentions Allen. Reid may have asked about it, but MS doesn't specifically address that aspect.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

As for Snyder's involvement, I think some people have a really naive expectation of how involved he should be. The guy is the owner of the team. He's not some dude from Kentucky posting on a message board about the Redskins. I think people expect him to be as involved with the team as any of us.

Do you see him having any say in personnel decisions anymore?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Peter King and Randy Cross this morning were talking about the OL on NFL radio, and they were discussing the fact that it doesn't take as long to get the zone blocking scheme up and running effectively over man schemes. I guess because it's more scheme over talent.

True, but Shanahan's zone blocking scheme relies on quickness and athleticism, something we're lacking along the line.

Heyer's slow, Randy Thomas is older and losing quickness, Mike Williams (if he plays G) is still built to be a masher as opposed to an athletic type, Rabach is still alright, Dockery is more of a drive blocker but athletic enough I guess, and Levi Jones is alright but not good enough to be the long-term answer at LT.

The scheme may go in quickly, but still won't be truly effective until we get the guys who can execute it.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

True, but Shanahan's zone blocking scheme relies on quickness and athleticism, something we're lacking along the line.

Heyer's slow, Randy Thomas is older and losing quickness, Mike Williams (if he plays G) is still built to be a masher as opposed to an athletic type, Rabach is still alright, Dockery is more of a drive blocker but athletic enough I guess, and Levi Jones is alright but not good enough to be the long-term answer at LT.

The scheme may go in quickly, but still won't be truly effective until we get the guys who can execute it.

Obviously we need new guys in here, I wasn't clear in saying that. The point King/Cross were trying to make was with Shanahan's system we can expect a quicker turnaround than with other schemes.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Lol, I was thinking the same thing. I just read her article and was thinking how miserable it must be to be her and look at everything through crap covered glasses.

This is where I see this hire as different from any other one in the past:

-Schottenheimer had stated 3 weeks prior to his hiring that he could never work for someone like Snyder. He was at the point where his legacy as a coach was still very much in question and it seemed (and was noted by Peter King at the time) almost like a money grab. Snyder made him the highest paid coach in the league and he came in trying to make it all about Marty. I remember George Michael a few months back saying that on the 1st day of camp he knew it wasn't going to work. Marty rubbed everyone the wrong way and there was no buffer (more on that in a minute) so the ego clash was immediate and brutal. He took the dictatorial role too seriously (alarms on the doors at camp?) and lost the team. Sure he got them back but it was too late in Dan's eyes.

-Spurrier and Shanahan have no comparison. Little did we know how vastly underprepared Spurrier was to being an NFL coach.

-Gibbs, for as much as we love him around these parts, was also vastly unprepared to be an NFL coach in the 2000's when he was hired. He was away from the game for too long, didn't surround himself with contemporary coaches and it took him a while to get his sea legs. Let's not forget the influence of Vincenzo Ceratto either.

-Zorn, see Spurrier.

With Shanahan, we're getting one of the most respected and accomplished coaches active in the league today, active being a key word!! Although he was out of the league he was never away from the league. He's probably more prepared now than he was while he was coaching because he could focus on 32 teams each week rather than 2. In addition he brings with him one of the hot young coordinators (as opposed to Jack Burns) to run the offense. He's got the buffer in Bruce Allen that Marty lacked. He's not coaching to establish a legacy, he's trying to extend a legacy so rather than overcompensating for past failures (like Marty), he's going to be able to build on what's worked in the past. He also brings the immediate respect of players (unlike Spurrier and Zorn) who have to prove everything to him instead of vice versa.

I think it's going to be a process to turn us into winners but I am assured that it will happen. I don't expect a 10 or 11 win season next year but wouldn't be shocked by it either. For the first time in nearly 20 years we can unequivocally say we've got the best coach in the division, now it's time to get the tools for him to go to work!

Excellent, excellent post!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Do you see him having any say in personnel decisions anymore?

I'm sure he'll give his opinions. But he will, as he has much much more often than not the past several years, defer the final decision.

[freddyg12]

My fear w/the new regime is that it is too similar in personel philosophy to the old one. I'm speaking about Shanny more so than Allen. In denver, they spent a lot of $ & brought in older players just like Synderatto has here.

I hope that there isn't a 'group think' environment where all the decision makers agree. That could lead to some more of the past. I'm encouraged that Shanny said he wants to be challenged by his scouts. And he & Allen's time away from the game has hopefully given them time to reflect and refresh; making them wiser & more methodical. This team needs a methodical, calculated, disciplined & rational approach to the future.

Even under Gibbs there was a belief that they were just a couple players away from a SB. That approach was often true in Gibbs heyday w/no cap or free agency when rosters were very stable year to year. In the cap era that approach doesn't work for a no. of reasons.

Bottom line; I need to be convinced that this team will build through the draft & not squander picks, I don't care who is running the team. Vinny gave this lip service, yet this year we are w/out a 6th round pick & last year were w/out a 2nd round pick, all for a guy that's back w/the team he left us for.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

As for Snyder's involvement, I think some people have a really naive expectation of how involved he should be. The guy is the owner of the team. He's not some dude from Kentucky posting on a message board about the Redskins. I think people expect him to be as involved with the team as any of us.

Snyder shouldn't have any involvment in determining the makeup of our roster. He also shouldn't have close personal relationships with any of the players. The point at which either of those statements is no longer true is the point that this team will start spiraling downhill (again).

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I can't listen to the audio but this is from the transcript



No mention of any sort of mediating, and he only mentions Allen. Reid may have asked about it, but MS doesn't specifically address that aspect.

The part you bolded did not completely reflect that question that was asked. redskins.com made sure of that.The question clearly mentioned cooke as a mediator. i'll see if i can find a complete transcript with the reporters questions.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Snyder shouldn't have any involvment in determining the makeup of our roster. He also shouldn't have close personal relationships with any of the players. The point at which either of those statements is no longer true is the point that this team will start spiraling downhill (again).

We'll agree to disagree