Time to Build an Offensive Line

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

[Skinny Tee]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

I agree with this post.

Anyone who is placing these guys in our starting lineup for next season is severely underestimating our need for a complete OL overhaul.

It's real, believe it, we actually need 4 completely new solutions for positions on our OL. The only remaining starter being Dockery.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...
Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.

Without the hyperbole, why isn't Heyer serviceable?
He played hurt last year but played better then the un-injured Levi Jones who some would consider serviceable.
Also, if you recall the 2009 after Samuels was hurt Heyer stepped in at LT and played well.

Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.

Again i ask you why? How would you describe Edwin Williams play at RG?
OL play is hard to evaluate.
Not hearing a players name is a good thing and when Edwin played RG his named wasn't mentioned for negatives.
And you have to remember Edwin was an UDFA playing out of postion

What was negative about Edwin Williams play?

Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".

These are cool sounding phrases and such but what specifically did he do on the field to support your opinion? The stats support that both Edwin Williams and Rinehart were 2 bright spot on our OL.

If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

Its like you weren't even reading my post.
We can't in one offseason realistically upgrade every position on the OL.
And the interior OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped.
There are players from last year that are going to play on the OL this year.
We don't know what Edwin and Rinehart are going to become but they are the youth on this team that show some promise.
Personally i don't think you were paying close attention to which players were playing well on the OL, you just know that as unit they were bad and you're ready to damn them all.
While i would love to have an all-pro OL it takes time to build one especially when our OL has be neglected for a decade.




Instead of simply sharpshooting why don't you tell us how you would realistically approach improving the OL with and without using thr 4th pick on an OL?

[sportscurmudgeon]

30gut:

Heyer and Williams were part of an offensive line that was overmatched in just about every game. Heyer is marginal against a pass rush and is less than satisfactory as a run blocker. Did you notice how often the Skins "ran left" on short yardage situations? I'm sure opposing defensive coordinators did. The reason they "ran left" is that Heyer as the RT is not any good at run blocking. He is an emergency player not a starter.

Williams' participation in games at right guard did not show any measured improvement in pass blocking by the OL and if he ever led a big run play downfield, I must have been distracted because I did not see it. I also never saw him "pancake" any DL in front of him. Sorry, this guy has a LOT of improving to do before he qualifies as a starter on a contending team. How would I describe his play at RG? Marginal - - and I would wager that if the Redskins cut him today, his agent's telephone would not be ringing off the hook with offers from 20 other teams in the NFL. If he were really a "bright spot" on the OL, and he were released, he would be contacted by a dozen other teams within the hour...

Rinehart has been here for two seasons. He has made it to the field on a Sunday how many times? Three? Four? Five at the most. Remember, he did not play at all in his rookie season... He was hurt this year and missed 6 games due to injury but that leaves 26 games in his career and he only found the field 3-5 times. Evidently, the coaches figured that he was lacking in skills most of the time that they put together their game plans.

If Williams and Rinehart are "2 bright spots" on the Skins' OL, how come they were not in games very often? And when they were in games, how come the Skins didn't dominate people?

The fact that Williams was an UDFA playing out of position does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. The fact that he was not mentioned for any negatives does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. When you out of the lineup because the coaches think there are better players than you are, you will never be mentioned for any "negatives"; that is not a "positive".

I read your original post carefully. I too have been saying that it will be next to impossible to reconstruct the entire OL in a single season. However, I simply cannot subscribe to the notion that the "OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped." The OL did not play well for most of the season; once Samuels and Thomas were hurt, it played poorly to marginally for the rest of the season. That poor-to-marginal play is a major reason the record was 4-12.

Just when did the OL start to play well in 2009?

Game 16 the Skins lost to the Chargers' JV squad.

Game 15 the Skins lost to the Cowboys in a shutout. Guess the OL didn't have a lot of "bright spots" that day.

Game 14 the Skins lost to a mediocre Giants' team by almost 5 TDs.

Game 13 the Skins beat the Oakland Raiders by 3 TDs. If this is when the OL line play began to be a positive, it sure seems to have evaporated quickly...

[30gut]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

30gut:
Heyer and Williams were part of an offensive line that was overmatched in just about every game. Heyer is marginal against a pass rush and is less than satisfactory as a run blocker. Did you notice how often the Skins "ran left" on short yardage situations? I'm sure opposing defensive coordinators did. The reason they "ran left" is that Heyer as the RT is not any good at run blocking. He is an emergency player not a starter.

I agree and i said that Heyer was serviceable with the potential to become good. Heyer like i mentioned was playing with a bad knee, a knee injured to the point where he couldn't practice some weeks but he still went out there and battled. Logic tells me that a healthy Heyer will play better then he did last year and although he played hurt Heyer was better then Levi Jones who is considered to be a serviceable player by some (not by me).
I look back at the Heyer I saw at the end on 2008 when Heyer took over the LT spot for an injured Samuels. That is the potential i see for healthy Stephon Heyer not the injured plagued player with a different partner playing next to him almost every week. I think an underrated cause of the Redskins problems on OL was lack of cohesion itself if the same guy would have played RG the enitre season they would have been better then a different gut almost every week.

Williams' participation in games at right guard did not show any measured improvement in pass blocking by the OL and if he ever led a big run play downfield, I must have been distracted because I did not see it.

Well how are we gonna measure improvement? Because if look at the stats from football prospectus he performed better then most of the other OL on our team.
Just as you didn't see him make any pancakes i didn't see him getting pushed back like Rabach or missing many blocks. And don't forget we're talking about a UDFA rookie Center he's going to have a learning curve. Especially when he's playing a new position next to an injured RT and a less then stout Center.

I also never saw him "pancake" any DL in front of him. Sorry, this guy has a LOT of improving to do before he qualifies as a starter on a contending team. How would I describe his play at RG? Marginal

I don't think having 'pancake' blocks was a requirement for being serviceable.
And i agree that he does have a lot of improving to do before he become a starter on a contending team. But guess what? We're not a contending team.
And how different is marginal from serviceable?
How about this: Edwin was marginal talent with upside based on youth?
And i was projecting him at his natural position of Center where he would instantly be more stout then Rabach.

Rinehart has been here for two seasons. He has made it to the field on a Sunday how many times? Three? Four? Five at the most. Remember, he did not play at all in his rookie season... He was hurt this year and missed 6 games due to injury but that leaves 26 games in his career and he only found the field 3-5 times. Evidently, the coaches figured that he was lacking in skills most of the time that they put together their game plans.

How about his actual play? You mention a lot of points about his past but don't comment on how he played. And to my eye when he was in the game he played well. (And again the pro football prospectus support what my eye showed me) he was one of our better OL.

If Williams and Rinehart are "2 bright spots" on the Skins' OL, how come they were not in games very often? And when they were in games, how come the Skins didn't dominate people?

Well if you're paying attention our OL play wasn't very good Levi Jones was on of the worst LT in football and an injured Heyer was slighty better. Therein was the crux of our OL problems imo.
Imo, Rinehart and Williams were bright spots because they're our young OL and possible future and they held their own when they were pressed into duty for the 1st time.

The fact that he was not mentioned for any negatives does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. When you out of the lineup because the coaches think there are better players than you are, you will never be mentioned for any "negatives"; that is not a "positive".

One of the common ways to know if an OL had at least a good game is if his name wasn't mentioned for a) getting beat b) holding or some other penalty.
So i'm gonna have to disagree when your an OL and your name isn't mentioned for something negative that in and of itself is a positive.

I read your original post carefully. I too have been saying that it will be next to impossible to reconstruct the entire OL in a single season. However, I simply cannot subscribe to the notion that the "OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped." The OL did not play well for most of the season; once Samuels and Thomas were hurt, it played poorly to marginally for the rest of the season. That poor-to-marginal play is a major reason the record was 4-12.

I agree for the most part except you're misquoting me i was refering to the interior OL not the enitre OL.

You cut out the beginning of my statement:

Originally Posted by 30gut

And the interior OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped.

And i want to mention imo a major reason for the seemingly improved play from the interior OL could certainly be given to Sherman Lewis playcalling.

I didn't think the interior OL was a big problem to begin with.
And i think we can agree that Doc wasn't a problem?
And although Rabach wasn't as stout as i would like he was much better then the OTs.
That leaves RG and once Montgomery stopped playing i thought the RG play improved.

I don't have a game-by-game breakdown of the interior OL.

But if you want which specific games i would say:
Falcons game where the backs rushed for 96 yards
Broncos backs rushed for 159 yard
Basically i thought the interior OL weeks 9-16 with the exception of the Giants game where the whole team looked disinterested other then Campbell and the Dallas game.

Look you have to build somewhere we can't have a completely new OL and you're not going to have big name players all across the OL but you have to start from somewhere and imo the place to start is the weakest spot. If these players make you feel umcomfortable its all the more reason to take an OT with the 1st so we have an honest chance at improving our OL next year. If it makes you feel better you can view our youth as the least horrible players on the OL who didn't crap themselves when their number was called.



But, believe good OL's are built over time with good coaching and playing time togother as a unit developing chemistry. Every player along the OL isn't going to be a big name player but the have to be able to play and these guys have shown signs and they're young.

HTTR!

[over the mountain]

draft a tackle with the 2nd round pick (SS's players sounded good)

draft a OT/G in the 4th round

sign OT tony pashos - we've been linked to him, our new o line coach is from SF. i dont believe he is guaranteed a starting job in SF but he wants one. i dont know much about this guy, player/skill wise thoo.

sign one of the broncos O lineman - with the broncos switching to power running football they might be parting with their zone blocking guys. hopefully shanny can pluck atleast 1 guy he likes from there,that player would be familiar with our new system, etc.

sign rabach to a 2 year deal if we cant find a better replacement in FA.

randy thomas is coming back imo, and the man is a beast. i do worry that he has slowed down a good bit the past few years and wont be the ideal fit for a speed zone blocking scheme but i like randy alot and will give him another year to prove he is still a top guard.

samuels has not retired yet, we will hear soon enough when he gets re-evaluated this month

resign mike williams to vet min.; if not resign levi jones to 1 year incentive based contract.

LT - samuels, pashos, our 2nd round OT
LG - dockery, broncos guard, 4th round G pick
C - rabach, edwin williams, ?
RG - thomas, rineheart, 4th round G pick
RT - pashos, 2nd round OT, heyer

if samuels does retire, i think we have to re-sign levi.

i think this scenario is very achievable. of course, this only works if tony pashos is an upgrade over heyer, m williams and levi jones.

[30gut]

This might help:

[MonkFan4Life]

Isn't Mawae pretty old ?

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by MonkFan4Life

Isn't Mawae pretty old ?

Yes but as bad as this line is, a strong band-aid may be necessary in a couple of spots.

I don't want them spending more money on Rabach. I think he had a decent year last year but I am tired of that jackass nose tackle in Dallas living in our backfield.

[SFREDSKIN]

If the skins decide to draft a QB with the 4th pick, then I would say sign Stephen Neal from the Pats (he's 33 but can play for 1 or 2 years) the other guy I would target is Hochenstein from the Broncos who also played for the Pats. Keep Rabach as an experienced backup along with Mike Williams, Rinehart.

[redsk1]

It's going to take a couple/few years to have a good oline again. I know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't start Heyer in any NFL game. Do whatever it takes, but no Heyer.

I'd try to find at least 2 olineman that have the capability to start in the NFL. We might get a FA to fill another hole.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by redsk1

It's going to take a couple/few years to have a good oline again. I know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't start Heyer in any NFL game. Do whatever it takes, but no Heyer.

I'd try to find at least 2 olineman that have the capability to start in the NFL. We might get a FA to fill another hole.

Personally, I want Heyer off the team. I would rather have Levi at RT than Heyer. He just isn't good enough to be a starting tackle in the league.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Pocket$ $traight

Personally, I want Heyer off the team. I would rather have Levi at RT than Heyer. He just isn't good enough to be a starting tackle in the league.

I was enamored with Heyer when he was picked up and lately have soured on him. But since we have him could he be used as a Guard? He is not LT material and he's hardly RT material. I'm guessing cause of his lateral movement. I could be way off but could he be retained as a Guard? Maybe there is more lateral movement and I just don't know it but I just wonder if he would be a decent Guard. Could he pull and be a good run blocking Guard?

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. I just looked at all our OL and thought all last yr that each one might have been a decent Guard but sucked at either LT or RT. Moving Levi to RT might solve that issue.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Pocket$ $traight

Personally, I want Heyer off the team. I would rather have Levi at RT than Heyer. He just isn't good enough to be a starting tackle in the league.

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I was enamored with Heyer when he was picked up and lately have soured on him. But since we have him could he be used as a Guard? He is not LT material and he's hardly RT material. I'm guessing cause of his lateral movement. I could be way off but could he be retained as a Guard? Maybe there is more lateral movement and I just don't know it but I just wonder if he would be a decent Guard. Could he pull and be a good run blocking Guard?

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. I just looked at all our OL and thought all last yr that each one might have been a decent Guard but sucked at either LT or RT. Moving Levi to RT might solve that issue.

I think a lot of people forget that Heyer played most of the season with a knee injury and often couldn't practice during the week.

Also, Heyer played 924 snaps gave up 8 sacks and 11 QB hits
Jones played 527 snaps gave up 6 sacks and 14 QB hits

Its hard to claim that Jones was better when his performance doesn't indicate this especially when you consider that Heyer was playing hurt most of the season.

Ailing Heyer hanging 'tough' for Redskins - Washington Times

In his first full season as a starting tackle for the Washington Redskins, Stephon Heyer has struggled to open holes in the run game and in pass protection.

But there's no disputing the former Maryland standout's toughness. Heyer has been playing with an ailing left knee for two months, and he crumpled to the field with an injured right knee during the third quarter Sunday night against Dallas.

"I don't know how he got up," offensive line coach Joe Bugel said. "I had [backup Will Robinson] ready to go, and he said, 'No. I'm playing.' "

Heyer didn't miss a snap even though the going-nowhere Redskins were trailing the Cowboys 17-0.

"Stephon's a tough kid," said left guard Derrick Dockery, who knows something about that attribute after starting 108 consecutive games. "He's playing pretty much injured the whole year. Even with the tough year we're having, I never wonder if he's going to play. I know Stephon. He's going to be out there. I'm real proud of him."

So is quarterback Jason Campbell, who was shaken up on the same play that Heyer injured his right patellar tendon against Dallas.

"Sometimes [Stephon] misses practice all week so he's able to play," Campbell said. "I commend him for his effort. He understands there's not a lot of depth. If he can't play, it puts us in a lot of trouble."

When it appeared Heyer might not be able to play two weeks ago, the Redskins were planning to start the untested Robinson against Justin Tuck, the New York Giants' standout pass-rusher. But Heyer sucked it up and started as usual.

"Each year, Stephon has gotten tougher and tougher," Bugel said. "He understands there's a lot of pain in the National Football League. You never wake up and feel good during the season."

Heyer, whose 18 consecutive starts rank sixth on the Redskins, has lined up next to four right guards and will make it five Sunday at San Diego if Paul Fanaika or Will Montgomery replaces the injured Mike Williams. Heyer also started three games at left tackle in place of the injured Chris Samuels.

"It's football, there's no guarantee that you're going to stay healthy," Heyer said. "You just gotta keep going. No one really cares if you're hurt. You just gotta keep playing even when there's nothing to play for except personal pride. Finishing, that's what I'm about."

The offense hasn't finished well the past two games, scoring just 12 points since Bruce Allen was named general manager Dec. 17. So Heyer, whose contract is expiring, knows Sunday could be his final game with Washington.

"It's an interview process," he said. "Every game is important. You gotta show that you can play."

Heyer blew out his left knee during two-a-days before what should have been his senior year at Maryland. He returned the next year and surprisingly made the Redskins in 2007. He missed time with a sprained shoulder last season - losing his job to right tackle predecessor Jon Jansen in the process - and hurt the knee again late in training camp this summer when Samuels rolled him up from behind. Heyer missed a couple of practices but was in the lineup for the opener. And he has been there every week.

Ever a realist, Heyer knows he hasn't had a stellar first full campaign.

"I think it's about average play," he said. "I've had my games here and there where I've played pretty well and had my games where I didn't play so well."

Bugel said Heyer has improved as he came to accept "hard coaching." Dockery has liked what he has seen from the 6-foot-6, 330-pound Georgian.

"Stephon has a lot of heart, and he has played pretty well on that knee," Dockery said. "He has the size. He has all the tools to be a really good tackle if he puts it all together."

[30gut]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I think a lot of people forget that Heyer played most of the season with a knee injury and often couldn't practice during the week.

Also, Heyer played 924 snaps gave up 8 sacks and 11 QB hits
Jones played 527 snaps gave up 6 sacks and 14 QB hits

Its hard to claim that Jones was better when his performance doesn't indicate this especially when you consider that Heyer was playing hurt most of the season.

Ailing Heyer hanging 'tough' for Redskins - Washington Times

In his first full season as a starting tackle for the Washington Redskins, Stephon Heyer has struggled to open holes in the run game and in pass protection.

But there's no disputing the former Maryland standout's toughness. Heyer has been playing with an ailing left knee for two months, and he crumpled to the field with an injured right knee during the third quarter Sunday night against Dallas.

"I don't know how he got up," offensive line coach Joe Bugel said. "I had [backup Will Robinson] ready to go, and he said, 'No. I'm playing.' "

Heyer didn't miss a snap even though the going-nowhere Redskins were trailing the Cowboys 17-0.

"Stephon's a tough kid," said left guard Derrick Dockery, who knows something about that attribute after starting 108 consecutive games. "He's playing pretty much injured the whole year. Even with the tough year we're having, I never wonder if he's going to play. I know Stephon. He's going to be out there. I'm real proud of him."

So is quarterback Jason Campbell, who was shaken up on the same play that Heyer injured his right patellar tendon against Dallas.

"Sometimes [Stephon] misses practice all week so he's able to play," Campbell said. "I commend him for his effort. He understands there's not a lot of depth. If he can't play, it puts us in a lot of trouble."

When it appeared Heyer might not be able to play two weeks ago, the Redskins were planning to start the untested Robinson against Justin Tuck, the New York Giants' standout pass-rusher. But Heyer sucked it up and started as usual.

"Each year, Stephon has gotten tougher and tougher," Bugel said. "He understands there's a lot of pain in the National Football League. You never wake up and feel good during the season."

Heyer, whose 18 consecutive starts rank sixth on the Redskins, has lined up next to four right guards and will make it five Sunday at San Diego if Paul Fanaika or Will Montgomery replaces the injured Mike Williams. Heyer also started three games at left tackle in place of the injured Chris Samuels.

"It's football, there's no guarantee that you're going to stay healthy," Heyer said. "You just gotta keep going. No one really cares if you're hurt. You just gotta keep playing even when there's nothing to play for except personal pride. Finishing, that's what I'm about."

The offense hasn't finished well the past two games, scoring just 12 points since Bruce Allen was named general manager Dec. 17. So Heyer, whose contract is expiring, knows Sunday could be his final game with Washington.

"It's an interview process," he said. "Every game is important. You gotta show that you can play."

Heyer blew out his left knee during two-a-days before what should have been his senior year at Maryland. He returned the next year and surprisingly made the Redskins in 2007. He missed time with a sprained shoulder last season - losing his job to right tackle predecessor Jon Jansen in the process - and hurt the knee again late in training camp this summer when Samuels rolled him up from behind. Heyer missed a couple of practices but was in the lineup for the opener. And he has been there every week.

Ever a realist, Heyer knows he hasn't had a stellar first full campaign.

"I think it's about average play," he said. "I've had my games here and there where I've played pretty well and had my games where I didn't play so well."

Bugel said Heyer has improved as he came to accept "hard coaching." Dockery has liked what he has seen from the 6-foot-6, 330-pound Georgian.

"Stephon has a lot of heart, and he has played pretty well on that knee," Dockery said. "He has the size. He has all the tools to be a really good tackle if he puts it all together."

"I though Heyer did some good things last year, and he was hurt," Shanahan said recently. "I'm looking forward to seeing how much he grows this offseason. I think Stephon has a lot of ability.

"I think it's untapped ability, and if he's willing to work hard, I think he's got a chance to be a player in the National Football League. The question is, 'How hard will he work in this offseason to get to the next level?' And I'm hoping he does."

Redskins Insider - Shanahan on Heyer: Untapped ability but hard work is needed