US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

[saden1]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

For all its many faults at least the U.S. has checks and balances in place, unlike most of the World.

In the face of money and ideology I can't honestly say our checks and balances matter as much anymore. The balance been tilting like The Leaning Tower of Pisa ever since its inception and the checks part, well, it has been sinking like The Titanic.

Complacency has set in. Statesmanship has decayed. Only rusting remains.

[Alvin Walton]

How long ago was this?
As disgusting as it was you may as well apologize to Mexico for taking Texas from them.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

I suppose the deaths of Native Americans, the African Salves and the Chines rail road worker don't count? America was born out of sin, into sin and and will die in sin. I am quite tired of people making indirect apologies for it and using deflection. America doesn't need defending nor does it deserve defending.

I said 20th century. Yup, in the 19th Century, we ignored the words of our own Declaration and that proclamation "all men are created equal" and, as a practical matter, did exactly what the Nazis did which was to justify slavery, murder and war by dehumanizing all who weren't white, protestant, Europeans. Was it wrong? Yup. Did we as a nation shed blood and treasure to rectify these wrongs? Yup. Do we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try and repair some of the damage done? Yup.

Of course this nation was flawed in its origin and continues to be so and will always be so. What nation, made of humans, wasn't "born in sin"? Where on this earth is that not true? Where would the utopian nation you seem to think "defensible" exist? Would its utopian nature survive its expansion and application to 300,000,000 million people of diverse cultural backgrounds. When we find wrongs, we seek to change them. Just like individuals, sometimes the wrong is seen only in retrospect.

"Die in sin"? Most definitely. Just not anytime soon. Again, humans aren't timeless and nothing we create is either wheter it be monuments or governmental structures. The US we know will die eventually b/c it is made of imperfect and finite people. Perhaps the rust and decline has begun - perhaps not.

Indirect apologies? Deflection? Not sure what you mean here, I have an idea but before I respond, would like an actual clarification.

"Doesn't deserve defending"? So although individuals may redeem themselves, the societies of which they are part of cannot? As a nation, unlike the Nazis, Stalinists or Maoists, we have changed for the better and continue to do so. Other nations have done the same, but in terms of size, none have done so on the scale that the US has in its 200+ years of existence. From a small restrictive plutocracy of landed merchants and farmers, we have expanded, granted, and protected individual freedoms to more people than other country before us. I would agree that our government should not be blindly or unquestionally defended in all its actions (past or present), but the ideals set forth in our founding documents are most definitely deserving of defense. Failure to defend the structure - flawed though it may be - built on those ideals risks their loss entirely.

To emerge from the muck of tyranny and injustice, a nation and its people will inevitably get dirty.

[firstdown]

I guess I need to also apologize to Mexico for that Mexican chick I bang and never called back (my sgl days). I guess I could also apologize to Italy and Sweden for the same thing. I almost have to apologize to China and Japan.

[Alvin Walton]

I apologize for rap, disco and Michael Moore.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

In the face of money and ideology I can't honestly say our checks and balances matter as much anymore. The balance been tilting like The Leaning Tower of Pisa ever since its inception and the checks part, well, it has been sinking like The Titanic.

Complacency has set in. Statesmanship has decayed. Only rusting remains.

America Is Not The Titantic | FoxNews.com

"Nothing short of citizens one by one looking into the abyss and then into the mirror, and vowing “Not on my watch,” will begin to remedy the responsibility deficit and break the entitlement addiction that’s killing us.
But break it we can. America has been here before, remember. Written off by declinists in the 1970s, she came roaring back in the ‘80s after responsibility was reborn in the heartland. All of us are crew members on this voyage, not just passengers."

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

I apologize for rap, disco and Michael Moore.

Disco Rocks.

Bee Gees, Staying alive - YouTube

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I said 20th century. Yup, in the 19th Century, we ignored the words of our own Declaration and that proclamation "all men are created equal" and, as a practical matter, did exactly what the Nazis did which was to justify slavery, murder and war by dehumanizing all who weren't white, protestant, Europeans. Was it wrong? Yup. Did we as a nation shed blood and treasure to rectify these wrongs? Yup. Do we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try and repair some of the damage done? Yup.

Of course this nation was flawed in its origin and continues to be so and will always be so. What nation, made of humans, wasn't "born in sin"? Where on this earth is that not true? Where would the utopian nation you seem to think "defensible" exist? Would its utopian nature survive its expansion and application to 300,000,000 million people of diverse cultural backgrounds. When we find wrongs, we seek to change them. Just like individuals, sometimes the wrong is seen only in retrospect.

"Die in sin"? Most definitely. Just not anytime soon. Again, humans aren't timeless and nothing we create is either wheter it be monuments or governmental structures. The US we know will die eventually b/c it is made of imperfect and finite people. Perhaps the rust and decline has begun - perhaps not.

Indirect apologies? Deflection? Not sure what you mean here, I have an idea but before I respond, would like an actual clarification.

"Doesn't deserve defending"? So although individuals may redeem themselves, the societies of which they are part of cannot? As a nation, unlike the Nazis, Stalinists or Maoists, we have changed for the better and continue to do so. Other nations have done the same, but in terms of size, none have done so on the scale that the US has in its 200+ years of existence. From a small restrictive plutocracy of landed merchants and farmers, we have expanded, granted, and protected individual freedoms to more people than other country before us. I would agree that our government should not be blindly or unquestionally defended in all its actions (past or present), but the ideals set forth in our founding documents are most definitely deserving of defense. Failure to defend the structure - flawed though it may be - built on those ideals risks their loss entirely.

To emerge from the muck of tyranny and injustice, a nation and its people will inevitably get dirty.

To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.


What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of slavery I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

America Is Not The Titantic | FoxNews.com

"Nothing short of citizens one by one looking into the abyss and then into the mirror, and vowing “Not on my watch,” will begin to remedy the responsibility deficit and break the entitlement addiction that’s killing us.
But break it we can. America has been here before, remember. Written off by declinists in the 1970s, she came roaring back in the ‘80s after responsibility was reborn in the heartland. All of us are crew members on this voyage, not just passengers."

That shit made me chuckle. Seriously, funny article.

Throwing the captain overboard is not going to prevent the ship from sinking. We should be throwing the lobbyists and the loud politicians overboard as they weights the most and the least likely to be missed. That at least should buy us more time.

[saden1]

firstdown, Alvin Walton...don't exert yourselves.

God, Country, Family. USA! USA! USA!

[budw38]

Man always has , and always will commit stupid horrible crimes against one another . I would like to know who ( or how many ) knew / OK'd this .... very sad . We also used Chemicals in Minnesota or Michigan during WW2 , to see how to defend against a chemical attack/s . Those who seek high power often abuse that power .

[budw38]

Originally Posted by saden1

To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.


What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of slavery I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

Nice post , however germany and many other European countries still embrace a culture of racism , injecting steroids into unsuspecting kids , and hurling racial slurs at professional athletes .Women and Steroids – The “Wonder Girls” The Ugly Game - TIME Racism still a reality in European football - CNN.com

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by budw38

Nice post , however germany and many other European countries still embrace a culture of racism , injecting steroids into unsuspecting kids , and hurling racial slurs at professional athletes .Women and Steroids – The “Wonder Girls” The Ugly Game - TIME Racism still a reality in European football - CNN.com

Two of the links are talking about the late 70s early 80s.

[DynamiteRave]

I don't see how that's surprising. We were already doing the same things right here at home.

NPR : Remembering the Tuskegee Experiment

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.

Again, every country is made of humans and, as such, each may be "redeemed". The Germans have redeemed themselves in many ways and struggle with it still. This transformation occurred, however, after the US and its allies spent considerable blood and treasure destroying the prior militiristic society and then, through the Marshall Plan, spent massive amounts of money rebuilding our former enemy's economy. Russia's transformation came about after a long costly cold war in which the US opposed the dictataorial oligarchy of the Soviet Union. Without such constant opposition from the US, I would suggest that the Soviet Union and its disregard for individual human rights would still be a force for oppression in this world. See my notes on China below.

Originally Posted by saden1

What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.?

Okay. I don't disagree with that apologies should be just that apologies without qualification. I don't think the "addition and subtraction" is as rampant as you seem to think. I believe that, as a nation, we are more likely to admit to our faults than many others. Sometimes, to a fault. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally Posted by saden1

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of slavery I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

I can. Mainly because, but for the intervention of the US - Japan, Germany and Korea would not have been transformed. As for China, it's human rights violations are legion and the crimes it commits against its own citizens make a comparision to the US laughable.

- Germany's and Japan's society's didn't just wake up one morning and say - "Hey, let's tansform ourselves." Transformation occurred after their militiristic societies were beaten, their homelands occupied by the US, and their governments were remade during occupation along democratic lines by the US (in Japan's case) and the Western Allies (In Germany's case - specifically West Germany).

Korea? Which Korea? The one currently under a communist dictator or the one that the US and its Allies spent blood and treasure to preserve from North Korean aggression? But for US intervention and American lives spent, there would be no S. Korea to transform.

CHINA??? Are you seriously holding them up as a "transformed society"? Please:

Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances. Harassment, surveillance, house arrest, and imprisonment of human rights defenders are on the rise, and censorship of the Internet and other media has grown. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, and of Falun Gong practitioners and Christians who practice their religion outside state-sanctioned churches continues. While the recent reinstatement of Supreme People's Court review of death penalty cases may result in lower numbers of executions, China remains the leading executioner in the world.

China Human Rights | Amnesty International USA

Around the late 1970s, as the first generation of Communist Party leaders were replaced by a second, some reforms provided a foundation of rapid economic development (it is now an economic superpower). The political reforms away from authoritarian rule has remained elusive.

For example, the government continues to exert its absolute control over politics, and is often looks to eradicate domestic “threats” to stability of the country through excessive use of force and authority.

Imprisonment of political opponents and journalists critical of the government has been common. The press is tightly regulated as is religion. Suppression of independence/secessionist movements is often heavy-handed, to say the least.

China and Human Rights — Global Issues


Sure, as a society, the US has plenty of black marks in its history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, our colonization of the Philipines, our treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, etc. We also have much on the other side of the ledger - a civil war to end slavery, the civil rights movement, our opposition of tyrany in various forms throughout history, etc. They are all part of the US's "body of work".

Again, in history, admitting that we are seriously flawed in our practice, I challenge you to find any other country that has done more to promote, provide and protect individual human rights and the rule of law than the US.