Is it finally time to rebuild??

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I think people are forgetting that it most likely was not about pressure but instead about how soft the field was. I'm betting Gano could not plant his left foot like he usually likes to do in order to get a good swing of his right leg into hitting the ball. I'd almost bet a lot on the fact Gano had to adjust his kicking due to the fact he didn't want to slip and fall while trying to kick which the adjustment alone probably caused his troubles. No different then McNabb having to adjust his throws or game plan if it's a windy day.

I might buy that if their kicker didn't go 3/3 and even hit a 44 yarder

[sdskinsfan2001]

I think that we can slowly rebuild the team with younger talent EXCEPT for on the O-LINE! We need to get younger now. We cant run the ball consistently and it seems like every time we start to get a little rythm on offense we get a huge sack or we lose 4 yards on a run play. So frustrating. Keep Trent Williams, the rest of the starters can be let go. 1st and 2nd round picks the best 2 O-lineman available (i like sherrod from miss st. for right tackle). Then with the rest of the picks get the best players possible for other positions of need later in the draft. T. Williams, Erik Cook, Selvish Capers, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick as our starting 5. Give the young guys a chance to get better and grow into a solid unit, sign some undrafted free agents and keep one or two current guys for depth.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them

Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them

I don't know ... this guy outlined it pretty well here:

Originally Posted by 44 70 chip

IMO the Skins should have been in rebuilding mode every year for the last decade. When you piss away 19 total draft picks on 5 players who lasted any time and were productive players via trade/draft trade ups then you "reap what you sow"

I am refering to:
2nd and Bailey for Portis (instead of just Bailey)
3rd for Brunell
1st, 3rd, & 4th total picks for Campbell
3rd & 4th total picks cost of Cooley
3rd & 4th for TJ Duckett
3rd & 4th for Brandon Lloyd
2nd & 6th + another drafts 2nd cost for Rocky McIntosh
2nd & 6th for Taylor
3rd or 4th rounder for Brown pending McNabb
2nd & 3rd or 4th rounder for McNabb

That's a total of 19 picks sent for (arguably) 5 long term starting Redskins of any caliber and two of those (McNabb and Brown obviously) are assuming McNabb and Brown stay for years to come and that is VERY much in question, as Brown is a unrestricted free agent in 3 games and McNabb... well who knows...

The Skins team building philosophy (if you can credit it with enough forethought to call it a philosophy) has been to sacrifice the long term (young potentially talented draftees who might play for 6 or 10 years) for proven players who may have a few years left on the clock, but usually spend at least one of those years adjusting to new systems and then often the next year adjusting to a new HC or coordinator and their systems.

McNabb's first year here is a great example... So was Brunell's

All those transactions took place in just the last six seasons. I guess it depends on how you define "recent years."

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by mooby

Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.

Jason Taylor! Right, I knew it was forgetting someone. But anyhow, the way I see it we make trades to get guys like Jason Campbell, Rocky McIntosh, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Carriker...that's not trading for older players really.

Like I said in another thread, I really didn't and don't have a problem with the trade for McNabb but along with that move last year should have been a move to add a QB for the future. It's not Beck, and I really doubt they went into training camp with thoughts that Colt would be that guy.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I don't know ... this guy outlined it pretty well here:



All those transactions took place in just the last six seasons. I guess it depends on how you define "recent years."

Well as I just mentioned most of those guys really aren't older players

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by mooby

Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.

Yes -- good point, regardles of age, (and SmootSmack, you're right -- most of thsoe guys weren't over 30) the evidence clearly shows that there were major whiffs on just about everybody the previous FO brought in here.

Bottom line is though, the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away [quoting Gov. Tarkin]. Thank heavens.

It would be a good question to ask though: Knowing what Philly knew about their QB situation, would McNabb have been released outright anyway?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Yes -- good point, regardles of age, (and SmootSmack, you're right -- most of thsoe guys weren't over 30) the evidence clearly shows that there were major whiffs on just about everybody the previous FO brought in here.

Bottom line is though, the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away [quoting Gov. Tarkin]. Thank heavens.

It would be a good question to ask though: Knowing what Philly knew about their QB situation, would McNabb have been released outright anyway?

Well the Eagles moved McNabb not really because of Vick but because they were ready to hitch their wagon to Kolb. So I'm not sure how much they really knew about their QB situation.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Yes -- good point, regardles of age, (and SmootSmack, you're right -- most of thsoe guys weren't over 30) the evidence clearly shows that there were major whiffs on just about everybody the previous FO brought in here.

Bottom line is though, the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away [quoting Gov. Tarkin]. Thank heavens.

It would be a good question to ask though: Knowing what Philly knew about their QB situation, would McNabb have been released outright anyway?

Seriously doubt that. At that time they knew they had a nice young QB in Kolb, but still an unproven one. And with Vick they had no clue he was going to blow up like this.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Jason Taylor! Right, I knew it was forgetting someone. But anyhow, the way I see it we make trades to get guys like Jason Campbell, Rocky McIntosh, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Carriker...that's not trading for older players really.

Like I said in another thread, I really didn't and don't have a problem with the trade for McNabb but along with that move last year should have been a move to add a QB for the future. It's not Beck, and I really doubt they went into training camp with thoughts that Colt would be that guy.

Exactly. I'm fine with trading for guys like Campbell, McIntosh, Carriker, etc., guys that fit your current system and you see being the long term future. If I was the Redskins though, I wouldn't want to trade for an established vet unless the guy coaching him was familiar with him from some previous spot in their career. I feel like we trade for vets, then ask them to do something they aren't used to, they don't like it, and either get out of here through bitching or playing unproductively so they are forced out.

As has been mentioned by 44 70 chip, a lot of those trades he listed were for players our coaching staff had no familiarity with, and we all know how a lot of those moves panned out.

As for your post SS, I think the Skins use a high draft pick on a qb this year. This draft is particularly qb heavy and I do think since the qb we draft won't be a top 5, starter from day 1 kinda guy, we need to give him a season or two to sit under McNabb and watch before the reigns get handed to him.

[44 70 chip]

Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

19 picks for 5-ish players

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by 44 70 chip

Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

19 picks for 5-ish players

I think that's what separates a front office that has a great scouting team and great GM. We have gotten some good players (Sean Taylor RIP, Clinton Portis, Chris Cooley, Santana Moss, Brian Orakpo, etc...) we do tend to pay dearly to get the players we want, which means having to sacrifice down the road instead of adding to.

I think Bruce Allen is what the Redskins need in order to not give the farm and all of the hen houses away for one or two franchise players, but I think the 'skins still need a Bobby Beathard type to find the diamonds in the rough, something I'm not so sure Allen knows how to do.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by 44 70 chip

Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

19 picks for 5-ish players

Yeah, you summed it up perfectly. That's just plain bad. Real bad. What sucks is that the top teams in the league do it just the opposite, but this team stayed with it year after year, hoping one day it would work. Oh well, I do think Snyder has learned the lesson.

I mentioned this in another thread, but the guy I'm looking at more and more is Rocky McIntosh. Talk about falling all over yourself to get a guy that has been nothing but mediocre. For a Ray Lewis-Brian Urlacher-Patrick Willis type guy, fine, do what you have to do. Maybe. But Rocky McIntosh? Ugh.

[jamf]

We are rebuilding.
Shanahan and Haslett implemented their systems and they are making players run it. We are not going to have 8 new starters on defense next year so it's in our best interest to make the players learn the system now and incorporate new complimentary players in the upcoming drafts. Realistically, you can only do so much with a draft. We would be lucky if we drafted 3 players that start next year when we probably need 10 new players.

[Longtimefan]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them

Correct

Mark Brunell - back to 04
Jason Taylor
Pete Kendall