Rumor from Denver

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by celts32

It would cost them 1300 points in addition to their 10th pick this year to move up to #2 for Gabbert. It's a steep price to pay but as i have said time and again on here if it solves the 20 year QB problem it's a price worth paying. Franchise QB trumps all other needs. If Shanny views Gabbert as the QB that he wants to build around then GO GET HIM.

Look at it this way...would you trade Orakpo & T Williams for Sam Bradford? I love those 2 players but I would do that in a second. QB is the hardest hole to fill and you are not even in the game until you have one...

Nope. Two quality players at the two most important positions after QB (the guy who protects the QB and the guy who rushes the other teams QB).

I understand and agree that QB is THE most important position and that franchise QB's are hard to find. BUT - the draft is a crapshoot at best, highly chosen QB's fail more often than they hit (No - haven't done the research on QB's taken in top 5 (recently) but believe this is true). Don't go reaching for QB's at the expense of building the supporting cast - it deprives the young QB of additional young talent and puts more pressure on him while playing the sport's most difficult position. If we were stocked everywhere BUT QB, then yes - by all means trade up. But we're not. Trading up for a QB when we have such an overall dearth of talent only sets up the highly rated QB to catastrophicallly fail.

Keep the pick or trade down. If the right QB is there, okay - take him. Then use remaining picks to help him. It's not like Gabbert is being touted as the 2nd coming of Manning or Elway. From all that I have read, he is not even rated as highly as Bradford was and, if Luck had come out, would be likely be the 2nd or 3rd rated QB.

Trading up is a luxury affordable to teams deep in talent. Otherwise, to build for the long term, cheap young talent that can be developed is what is needed. The QB issue will be resolved, first we need to build a team that allows a young QB to succeed and a good QB to thrive.

[celts32]

You make some good points and i am sure a lot of people on here agree with you. I am just looking at it from the angle of which holes are more difficult to fill in terms of finding them and ultimately training them to play. We are already a year into the Shanny regime...we simply have to have the QB this year to start grooming him. As for the many other holes on the team...we have a cleaned out cap and eventually the biggest crop of free agents ever to choose from. We can select some young players from that group and use whatever other draft picks we have also. Basically there are a lot of other ways to build a team other then with high draft picks but you will rarely if ever find a Franchise QB that way. So if in Shannys mind he can solve the QB problem with a couple of #1 picks then he should do it.

[MTK]

Trading up for someone like Gabbert is a horrible idea. He's not a Manning or even Bradford type of prospect. Solving the QB issue is just one piece of the puzzle.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Trading up for someone like Gabbert is a horrible idea. He's not a Manning or even Bradford type of prospect. Solving the QB issue is just one piece of the puzzle.

I agree that based on what were hearing publically these QB's are not worth that type of move up. However, how good you or I or the media think Gabbert is is not whats important. It's how good Shannahan thinks he is that matters. He probably doesn't think he's worth it, but I don't want to hear him open his mouth in May like he did last year when he said Bradford was the best QB prospect he has seen in years. I want them to take action based on what their evaluation of these QB's tells them to do. Maybe that evaluation this year should tell them to do nothing and draft defense high and pick a QB in the 5th round. but clearly last years evaluation of Bradford should have led them to trade up to the #1 pick and they decided not to for whatever reason. I don't want that to happen again...

[MTK]

I know you're a fan of getting a guy at any cost - based on Shanahan's actions last year he clearly is not.

Bradford was a good prospect, but still not a trade your future away for him type.

[Swarley]

There is no indication that you draft a "franchise QB" and the rest just falls in place. There's a reason we didnt trade up to get Bradford. More than likely the Rams were asking for far too much to the point where it would stunt the growth of our team in other spots.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I know you're a fan of getting a guy at any cost - based on Shanahan's actions last year he clearly is not.

Bradford was a good prospect, but still not a trade your future away for him type.

I think based on what Shannahan said he was worth it.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

There is no indication that you draft a "franchise QB" and the rest just falls in place. There's a reason we didnt trade up to get Bradford. More than likely the Rams were asking for far too much to the point where it would stunt the growth of our team in other spots.

The rest doesn't just fall in to place but look at the teams that win consistently. How many of them have average QB's? Great QB play covers up a lot of holes. They move the ball and keep the defense off the field...they make quick decisions with the ball that makes their OL look better then it really is...they keep the 8th man out of the box and improve the running game. The best example of this is the Colts who have a 4 win roster without Manning.

The reason I want them to be aggressive is because this position does not just fall to you. they are incredibly hard to find. The Redskins have been looking for a QB for most of the last 25 years.

Suppose like most fans want, the redskins improve the overall roster but ignore QB...maybe they even improve enough to win 9 or 10 games with one of their retread QB's. Now they are ready to add that franchise QB and become an actual super bowl contender...only now they are drafting in the low 20's instead of the top 10 and it's that much harder to find this QB. Not to mention the fact that then he needs his year or 2 to get up to speed and he does not have the luxury of the extra time while we are rebuilding because we are good now and we need him to step right in and play at a high level so we can make a super bowl run.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

This seems like a difficult year to trade back, especially in the top 5. The uncertianty w/the cba/lack thereof makes it hard to determine just how much teams will have to pay these picks. I think we're in a much better spot to trade back than Denver.

Exactly how much of a difference in pay will it be? I know significant from the #1 pick to #10 but honestly their going to have to pay someone to perform the job. As far as the CBA goes I don't think either side had a problem with the Rookie Cap. The owners want it, the players want it because the not used money can be used for the vets on the team or keeping the vets on the team. If anything at all the players are using it as a bargining chip for something else, but I'm sure the Rookie Cap will be in place this year so teams really don't need to worry about what they will be paying the #2 spot.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by celts32

You make some good points and i am sure a lot of people on here agree with you. I am just looking at it from the angle of which holes are more difficult to fill in terms of finding them and ultimately training them to play. We are already a year into the Shanny regime...we simply have to have the QB this year to start grooming him. As for the many other holes on the team...we have a cleaned out cap and eventually the biggest crop of free agents ever to choose from. We can select some young players from that group and use whatever other draft picks we have also. Basically there are a lot of other ways to build a team other then with high draft picks but you will rarely if ever find a Franchise QB that way. So if in Shannys mind he can solve the QB problem with a couple of #1 picks then he should do it.

I guess I just don't get the panick mode mentality? "OMG, MS is one year removed from his 5 yr deal." "OMG, MS might not be able to complete his work unless we get a QB this yr."

I'm just baffled. MS still has 4 yrs to include this one. Get the OL and DL set and any supporting staff, use Grossman and Beck this yr, next yr 2012 throw your picks in to get Luck, and pick up a WR and RB. Then they would still have 3 yrs to develope and make a SB run. I'm sure if they do well and this team is on the right track Snyder will most likely resign MS or hire his son as HC to allow the completion of the work already done.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by celts32

The rest doesn't just fall in to place but look at the teams that win consistently. How many of them have average QB's? Great QB play covers up a lot of holes. They move the ball and keep the defense off the field...they make quick decisions with the ball that makes their OL look better then it really is...they keep the 8th man out of the box and improve the running game. The best example of this is the Colts who have a 4 win roster without Manning.

The reason I want them to be aggressive is because this position does not just fall to you. they are incredibly hard to find. The Redskins have been looking for a QB for most of the last 25 years.

Suppose like most fans want, the redskins improve the overall roster but ignore QB...maybe they even improve enough to win 9 or 10 games with one of their retread QB's. Now they are ready to add that franchise QB and become an actual super bowl contender...only now they are drafting in the low 20's instead of the top 10 and it's that much harder to find this QB. Not to mention the fact that then he needs his year or 2 to get up to speed and he does not have the luxury of the extra time while we are rebuilding because we are good now and we need him to step right in and play at a high level so we can make a super bowl run.

Umm, not neccessarily. Next year we will have a full complement of picks. We can throw in our 1st round pick and 2nd round pick to move up to the #1 spot and get the QB we want. No?

You would have us throw away our only two good picks plus what to move up to #2 to get Gabbert, when all I want the team to do is trade out of our #10 spot to maybe the 20's, pick up a second round 2 pick, take an OL, then take a DL or vise versa, and pick up Dalton, Ponder, or Kaepernick. Throw away 2 + picks for one player or give up one mid round pick for 2 picks? I'll take the latter.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by celts32

I think based on what Shannahan said he was worth it.

Must not have been worth selling the farm for, otherwise he'd be here.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Umm, not neccessarily. Next year we will have a full complement of picks. We can throw in our 1st round pick and 2nd round pick to move up to the #1 spot and get the QB we want. No?

You would have us throw away our only two good picks plus what to move up to #2 to get Gabbert, when all I want the team to do is trade out of our #10 spot to maybe the 20's, pick up a second round 2 pick, take an OL, then take a DL or vise versa, and pick up Dalton, Ponder, or Kaepernick. Throw away 2 + picks for one player or give up one mid round pick for 2 picks? I'll take the latter.

A 2nd round pick is not nearly enough to get up to the #1 spot. We pick 10th this year and it would cost us 1300 points to move up to #1. That is equal to at least next years #1 and this years #2.

I am not necesarily saying to trade up to get gabbert. I am saying if Shanny thinks he is a franchise QB he should do it. If he only views him as a pretty good prospect then he shouldn't.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I guess I just don't get the panick mode mentality? "OMG, MS is one year removed from his 5 yr deal." "OMG, MS might not be able to complete his work unless we get a QB this yr."

I'm just baffled. MS still has 4 yrs to include this one. Get the OL and DL set and any supporting staff, use Grossman and Beck this yr, next yr 2012 throw your picks in to get Luck, and pick up a WR and RB. Then they would still have 3 yrs to develope and make a SB run. I'm sure if they do well and this team is on the right track Snyder will most likely resign MS or hire his son as HC to allow the completion of the work already done.

First off...if you assume no QB this year then you can consider him 2 years in with no QB. How long in your estimate will it take to get a 1st or 2nd round QB ready to play on average? 1 full year maybe 2 is probably a fair estimate. So assume we get the QB next year and then he spends year 3 and part of Shannys year 4 learning. Year 5 is probably the earliest we can expect him to be ready to actually play well enough for us to win with him.

Throwing picks at Luck is not going to work. At this point he is such a highly rated prospect that I doubt the team holding the pick will even entertain offers. Only chance of him being on the market would be if somehow a team with a young established QB somehow has a rash of injuries and ends up going 1-15. Not at all likely.

Also...I am not saying i want them to force a QB pick on a guy they don't love. All I am saying is that if there is a QB in this draft that they love...I believe they should be aggressive about getting him. I don't get why every Redskins fan would not think the same way...

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by celts32

A 2nd round pick is not nearly enough to get up to the #1 spot. We pick 10th this year and it would cost us 1300 points to move up to #1. That is equal to at least next years #1 and this years #2.

I am not necesarily saying to trade up to get gabbert. I am saying if Shanny thinks he is a franchise QB he should do it. If he only views him as a pretty good prospect then he shouldn't.

That is what I'm talking about. For us to move up this year we would have to atleast offer our #10 pick this year and our 2nd rounder. Two picks just to get one player we like? Plus we don't have a round 3 or 4 pick. I just don't see that happening for us.

However next year, when Luck will be in the draft and he was rated higher then all the ones this year or would have been, we will have a full complement of picks. If the team wants to throw their 1st round and 2nd round draft pick at a team to get Luck or whoever is rated second best then I'm all for it. Because we will still have the 3 through 7 round picks to go after other players.