Pretend you are the Skins' GM...

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yay for youtube clips of fringe roster players!

Can I get a Kory Lichtensteiger highlight reel? Dirtbag? Anyone?

No, but I have my old Devin Thomas reel, will that do?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

No, but I have my old Devin Thomas reel, will that do?

We're really stretching the concept of a fringe roster player to include guys who don't know how to line up in a legal football formation...but I'd approve. Let's go for it.

[sportscurmudgeon]

OK folks, after a couple dozen replies here, let me explain why I started this thread in the first place...


1. Given the lack of love shown here for Carlos Rogers, I wondered how enthusiastic folks might be to acquire a Pro Bowl caliber CB to play in his place.

2. Given the cries of anguish here when the Skins' defense ranked 30th in the league last year - - or was it 31st - - I wondered how much an upgrade at CB might appeal to folks here.


I purposely did not include what the Eagles might be seeking in such a trade - - even though there is plenty of "scuttlebutt" around on that front to see what folks here might want to offer if they wanted to offer anything at all.


I find it interesting that some folks said that they never want to deal with the Eagles again because the Eagles fleeced the Redskins on the McNabb deal last year. Excuse me, but that paints the entire Redskins organization as a bunch of rubes who cannot be trusted to deal with the vastly superior folks who run the Philly franchise. With that attitude, I doubt many of you would be invited to Bruce Allen's house for a BBQ anytime soon...

I was also surprised as to the degree to which people placed emphasis on young players here. Frankly, I agree with that emphasis especially since the Redskins have emphasized exactly the opposite for at least the last 10 years. Nevertheless, it seems a bit harsh to pass entirely on a Pro Bowl level player just because you might have to part with a player who might be younger. For the record, Asante Samuel is 8 months older than John Beck...

Here is the reason - - I suspect - - that no one here would want to pursue this deal in reality. The biggest offer anyone came up with was "Torrain and a 3rd round pick" (and that offer sent shivers down several posters' spines). The "scuttlebutt" is that the Eagles want more than that. If the "sculltebutt" is correct, they actually want something that the Redskins do not have to offer so everyone is safe here...

Supposedly, the Eagles want to trade Samuel for a starting right tackle to protect Vick's blind side. The Skins do not have anyone at RT that would fit the profile the Eagles are looking for so do not lose any sleep over the possibility of this kind of deal going down - - unless it becomes a 3-way swap.

Thanks for the responses. I enjoyed seeing how the folks here looked at this "opportunity".

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Here is the reason - - I suspect - - that no one here would want to pursue this deal in reality. The biggest offer anyone came up with was "Torrain and a 3rd round pick" (and that offer sent shivers down several posters' spines). The "scuttlebutt" is that the Eagles want more than that. If the "sculltebutt" is correct, they actually want something that the Redskins do not have to offer so everyone is safe here...

And even that suggestion is only meant to answer the question "what is he worth to us" not "should we actually want to acquire him".

If you consider that the Redskins are a non-contender in 2011, then obviously, no, trading picks for players is a bad strategy. Hence why I didn't like the Hightower trade as much as others.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't know if I'd disagree with the assessment that Torain is or can be a decent running back. He just is very limited by his inability to consistently go forward and turn the outside stretches into long TD runs.

He can move the chains for an NFL offense, which is valuable, but probably not worth a roster spot unless he can add value on special teams or by pass blocking.

I don't know. I know you bang on Torrain as no great shakes and, I agree, he certainly seems to lack one or both of (a) break away speed or (b) downfield vision in that he doesn't seem to break many long runs. At the same time, he does consistently move the chains and seems to make the right choices at the line of scrimmage often enough to make consistent pick ups. He seems to make consistent gains even in 8 man fronts (I differ to you on this b/c I am just working on memory).

I think you underrate the value of "moving the chains" particularly in a rush-centric offense. If ATV can stay on the field and consistently "move the chains", he will be our starting back. After all, isn't that exactly what Olandis Gary and M. Anderson did for him in Denver?

Move the chains, rack up yards and clear the way for the passing game. ATV is not the second coming of B. Sanders but, if he stays healthy, I am betting he is the starter through the year with the only caveat being that Helu may be exactly the same as ATV but with speed and vision. In which case, Helu takes over somewhere down the line.

[GTripp0012]

If, hypothetically, a team had a replacement level offensive line, and a replacement level passing game, you probably would have no better option on offense than to hand Ryan Torain the ball and hope that he gets hot and rips off a couple of 12-17 yard gains in a row moving the ball downfield.

So I'm probably underrating Torrain's effect on the 2010 Washington Redskins by valuing his skill set to an average offense that can throw the ball a little bit and has other runners with breakaway speed who make better cuts. You could argue the Redskins didn't have those options in 2010. I'd like to think I am doing it this way because I am being forward thinking. Perhaps I'm just being abstract for the sake of abstract, which is where people have their issue with my assessment of him.

My whole thing is if we carry that logic forward to include the 2011 Redskins, where Torain is still the best option on the offense to move the chains, there would be a good chance the offense has gone backwards and that the offensive coaches are getting fired after the year.

In the most blunt of terms, I don't think a world where Ryan Torain is a valuable chain-mover (despite his other faults) is a world that Redskins should want to live in. It just means you have no other options by which to achieve yards and points, so you use a boom or bust runner who's busts tend to end drives and booms tend not to break 20 yards. It's like bringing a 1970's offense to the modern day.

[tomsawyer]

i'd trade for osi before i would samuels.he's worth a 3rd rounder,not a first.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by tomsawyer

i'd trade for osi before i would samuels.he's worth a 3rd rounder,not a first.

Osi is not suitable for a 3-4 and is becoming injury-prone in his age. Plus, he wants a new contract from his new team, so we'd be paying too much to get him, then paying too much again to keep him.

Agreed, not worth a first for Osi.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If, hypothetically, a team had a replacement level offensive line, and a replacement level passing game, you probably would have no better option on offense than to hand Ryan Torain the ball and hope that he gets hot and rips off a couple of 12-17 yard gains in a row moving the ball downfield.

So I'm probably underrating Torrain's effect on the 2010 Washington Redskins by valuing his skill set to an average offense that can throw the ball a little bit and has other runners with breakaway speed who make better cuts. You could argue the Redskins didn't have those options in 2010. I'd like to think I am doing it this way because I am being forward thinking. Perhaps I'm just being abstract for the sake of abstract, which is where people have their issue with my assessment of him.

My whole thing is if we carry that logic forward to include the 2011 Redskins, where Torain is still the best option on the offense to move the chains, there would be a good chance the offense has gone backwards and that the offensive coaches are getting fired after the year.

In the most blunt of terms, I don't think a world where Ryan Torain is a valuable chain-mover (despite his other faults) is a world that Redskins should want to live in. It just means you have no other options by which to achieve yards and points, so you use a boom or bust runner who's busts tend to end drives and booms tend not to break 20 yards. It's like bringing a 1970's offense to the modern day.

Wow, you really like to hear yourself type, don't you?

You are blatantly undervaluing and underestimating Torain. When healthy, he's an explosive runner who is capable of being a Top 15-20 RB in the league. Yes, I just said that. He's a young player, only 24. If he can overcome his early injury troubles and remain on the field for a few years, he'll be as valuable as Portis was for us.

Hightower was not brought here to be a #1 back. He has never held that role before and is not expected to here. He'll likely be a 3rd-down back because of his red zone success and his pass blocking abilities. With the loss or Portis, we needed a new RB who could block when needed. Hightower should fill that role on passing downs. Keiland Williams at FB should also help in that duty.

A Torain/Helu tandem is too valuable to break up for an aging cornerback. If we were to rely on a rookie and a timeshare back going foward, that's risky. Depth at RB, an injury-prone position is more important than acquiring a big name CB who would be marginally-better than other options like Grimes or even Wilson who we already have...without the risk of making a division rival stronger, again.

Also, you claim that the running game is some ancient form of play that has become obsolete...yet teams with strong running games like Baltimore, the Jets, Kansas City, Eagles, Giants and Texans are some of the stronger teams in the league. Even the Patriots ranked higher in rushing (9th) than passing (11th) last year. Rushing teams are not weak, outdated teams destined to failure as you claim.
NFL - Statistics by Team - Yahoo! Sports

You promote yourself as the "film expert" of the forum, yet you can't watch Ryan Torain and see his potential and the impact he already makes on our offense? Yes, his health is a question mark, but if he can stay on the field, he's a valuable weapon for us.

Also, we'd be facing a Vick/McCoy/Torain 3-headed monster twice a year and in the playoffs if we make it...an old Asante Samuel won't have much of a role in stopping that freight train.

Simply stated, the trade you proposed would do FAR more to improve the Eagles than us.

[NYCskinfan82]

No thankyou.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Monkeydad

Wow, you really like to hear yourself type, don't you?

You are blatantly undervaluing and underestimating Torain. When healthy, he's an explosive runner who is capable of being a Top 15-20 RB in the league. Yes, I just said that. He's a young player, only 24. If he can overcome his early injury troubles and remain on the field for a few years, he'll be as valuable as Portis was for us.

Hightower was not brought here to be a #1 back. He has never held that role before and is not expected to here. He'll likely be a 3rd-down back because of his red zone success and his pass blocking abilities. With the loss or Portis, we needed a new RB who could block when needed. Hightower should fill that role on passing downs. Keiland Williams at FB should also help in that duty.

A Torain/Helu tandem is too valuable to break up for an aging cornerback. If we were to rely on a rookie and a timeshare back going foward, that's risky. Depth at RB, an injury-prone position is more important than acquiring a big name CB who would be marginally-better than other options like Grimes or even Wilson who we already have...without the risk of making a division rival stronger, again.

Also, you claim that the running game is some ancient form of play that has become obsolete...yet teams with strong running games like Baltimore, the Jets, Kansas City, Eagles, Giants and Texans are some of the stronger teams in the league. Even the Patriots ranked higher in rushing (9th) than passing (11th) last year. Rushing teams are not weak, outdated teams destined to failure as you claim.
NFL - Statistics by Team - Yahoo! Sports

First, you can't read. Because you're responding to points I never made. And you're doing that poorly.

No one ever said teams with strong rushing games don't do better than teams with weak rushing games. However, you've tried to prove that non-assertion correct, and did a horrible job, using team rushing YPG as evidence.

If you were better at reading, you might have tried to prove that Ryan Torain actually could contribute to a strong rushing team. You may have either found yourself to be wrong (unlikely), or you might have made a case based on some flimsy evidence and high on personal attacks (more likely).

Your case, in logical format:

1) Ryan Torain is just 24 years old.
2) Ryan Torain is capable being a Top 15 to Top 20 NFL runner
3) Ryan Torain can overcome early career injury troubles to become a top 15 to 20 runner.
4) Tim Hightower is being brought in to play on third downs, with Torain on first and second downs.

Conclusion:
5) If you break up a Helu/Torain tandem, your team will lose more because of it.

Points 3+4 kind of decrease the likelihood that you are right on Torain's upside. But I think you're biggest mistake is that you're treating Torain's 24 as young, without giving the same benefit of youth to the other RBs on the Redskins roster who don't have obvious injury issues. Torain is not younger than the average Redskins RB. And he is not likely to play 16 weeks on the Redskins roster this year.

Given all the above, it would seem foolish to hold him in higher regard than someone like Jeremy Jarmon, who was a third round draft pick and just 24 years old when Washington traded him this offseason. But on the difference of opinion regarding Torain's upside: to each their own.

I would just point out to reach upside, opportunity to do so must be abundant. As a Shanahan RB, I'm not sure why Torain would get enough opportunities to reach that upside while every other player rots on the bench.

An assertion I can make, all else equal: a Helu/Keiland tandem is stronger in both youth and ability than a Torain/Helu tandem.

[tomsawyer]

straight up trade samuels for buchanon? lol

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by tomsawyer

straight up trade samuels for buchanon? lol

Great idea. The Skins get a better CB AND Samuels is younger than Buchanon so the team can get younger at the same time.


Quick, get Joe Banner on the phone and see if he's interested...

[Paintrain]

Nah, I'm actually pretty happy with what we've done this offseason. We are going younger, future rather than bigger, now. I'd rather remain consistent than make a trade for Samuel which runs contrary to all of our other moves.

[tomsawyer]

the eagles should just thrown in a reacharound and send him to us for nothing after selling us on that mcnabb trade last year!