Why the backstabbing?

jdlea · 03-11-2005, 11:57 AM

That's comical that you think he didn't came here for Spurrier. What were David Patten's words at the press conference?

Quote:

"He told me they were going to call me at midnight. He asked me for my cell number and that Coach Gibbs was going to call me. I was like 'Coach Gibbs?' I feel like I have been fairly successful but I didn't think I had done that much to receive that kind of attention. It was almost too good to be true. At 12:02 I was watching the clock. I had my cell phone beside me and I was trying to be cool like I am supposed to be in this situation."

That asshole came because he wants to play for Coach Gibbs. Maybe he handles it differently when Gibbs leaves, maybe he doesn't. Players look forward to playing for coaches. Any arguement to the contrary is just dumb.

MTK · 03-11-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlea

Matty, I agree with you about Coles, but you have to understand, he didn't sign on to play with Gibbs. He signed on to play with Spurrier. He came here thinking deep balls and all he got last season were wide receiver screens and curl routes. Am I defending him? Kinda. I don't think what he did was right. However, I think I could see where he was coming from.

I thought he signed a contract to play football for the Washington Redskins, correct me if I'm wrong.

CrazyCanuck · 03-11-2005, 05:13 PM

Pierce - The guy did a great job for us and I have no hard feelings. I think AP was the most "honest" of all these guys. He told the Redskins he'd seek the best deal he could and the Skins would have the chance to match any offer. He got his deal and the Skins decided not to match. Not to mention this is the guy's first (and maybe only) big payday so I'm not sure any of us would have handled it differently. I wish him the best, but I can't say the same for the Giants.

Smoot - Definitely one of my favorite Skins. The guy always played hard and played hurt. He was a team leader and I wish we coulda kept him. But I will defer to Williams here. The guy obviously seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to D, so who am I to argue? Smoot got a decent amount more from Minny, and I'm kind of glad we showed a little spending restraint. I think in this case both sides were a little hypocritical with their comments. We said we wanted to keep him and Smooty said he wanted to stay here, but at the end of the day it seems neither side was willing to budge much to make that happen. So I can only assume we didn't want him as bad as we said, and he didn't want to stay here as much as he indicated. I have no hard feelings here either. The saddest part of this whole thing is probably smootsmack's name change. I have great memories of Smoot as a Skin and this won't really tarnish them. I just wish he wasn't such close friends with Champ.

Coles - I've had time to calm down and think about it, but I still can't understand it. LC was my favorite Skin. I thought the guy was great and always played hard. He had great speed and instincts and usually made something out of nothing. Even on those brutal screens we kept running last year, LC was usually able to turn no gain into some gain. I just can't make sense of his logic here:
- LC would rather leave the Skins coached by JOE GIBBS, to go play for the freakin' JETS?????? Nothing against the J-E-T-S or Herm Edwards but what is this 1970? Is Joe Namath there? I can't understand this.
- LC didn't like the offense but he caught 90 balls! Only one WR in the NFL was thrown to more. Granted most were short routes but that's what the coach and team wanted (needed). Since when are WRs used exclusively deep? Maybe they should come up with new positions called SWR (short WR) and LWR (long WR).
- If LC was a free agent and decided to leave I'd still be upset for the reasons above, but he got a $13M bonus 2 years ago. I know he liked Spurrier blah blah blah. Well no one said Spurrier would be here 7 years so I don't think that argument holds up.
- He knew his cap hit would kill us and hurt the team that made him rich, but he didn't seem to care. As for the "$5M giveback", no one really knows the story and the bottom line is he gave nothing back.

I figure Snyder said "f*^k him", he'll sit for 2 years and watch from his flat screen. But my guess is that Gibbs decided that was not the best route for team chemistry and decided to dump him, despite the hideous cap hit. And I respect Gibbs for sticking to his offer of letting non-Skins go.

That being said we can't afford to bend over every time a player starts crying. I give Gibbs and the Skins a pass this time since LC was not Gibbs' signing. But I hope this is the last time we ever give in like this.

I do have hurt feelings from LC's departure. I guess he wasn't exactly the guy we all thought he was. I hope he's happy playing for the JETS in the friggin' AFC. So long and good riddance.

I'd hoped I'd have many great memories of Ramsey throwing TDs to LC all over the field. Instead I'll forever remember Coles as our $9 Million Dollar Baby.

MTK · 03-11-2005, 11:24 AM

I have no hate for Pierce or Smoot at all.

They gave the Skins more than a fair shot to re-sign them, and gave the team the chance to match. In the end they left for the better deal and I don't blame them one bit.

As for Coles, I'm disappointed with what went down. I think he showed a real lack of maturity on his part for pouting when things weren't going his way in the offense. He comes off as being pretty selfish and overly concerned about his personal stats. Not that Snyder acted very mature either with his threatening comments, but the trigger for Snyder's tirade was all on Coles.

In the end though I wish Coles the best. He had some very respectful things to say after it was all over and you have to give the guy some credit for that, he could have easily bashed the Skins like he did the Jets 2 years ago.

cpayne5 · 03-11-2005, 12:06 PM

The fact of the matter is that most fans don't understand the actual business dealings of player acquisition & retention. We're like a 5 year old kid that hasn't been told 'no' his whole life up until this offseason. So, with the help of anonymity that the warpath provides, people feel they can come on here and become instant geniuses and pronounce their know it all, knee-jerk reactions to events that upset them. I bet that for a lot of them it will be one of their only posts on this site (think how many disgruntled one-posters we've had just over the past 12 months!), and that they wouldn't use the same words if this were a public face-to-face forum. I've learned to live with it (read ignore).

Longtimefan · 03-11-2005, 01:30 PM

All this talk about "Core Redskins" which is a Gibbs phrase has been over used by so many ever since he uttered it.

Pierce, as well as Smoot had an opportunity to demonstrate they wanted to be core players but they both chose to abandon the concept for a few dollars more. The Redskins made it perfectly clear how much they were going to pay each player before they departed, and each was offered a fair contract. I'm happy the team did not let the market dictate how much they should pay a player. Granted, Pierce had a good year, but only one and prior to last year he played primarily special teams. Therefore I am reluctant to label these guys "Core" because had they been the would still be here.

My idea of a "Core Redskin"!! Darrell Green, one of the most talented players to ever wear the Redskins uniform. He had a multitude of opportunities to leave for a few dollars more but he chose to remain a Redskin. While there were others (I won't bother to mention them all) I know these are the kind of players Gibbs is looking for to fill his roster but in todays game that may be difficult to accomplish.
However, I do wish him well in his attempt.

Good Luck In 05 And Beyond!!

redrock-skins · 03-11-2005, 01:31 PM

If Coles signed on to be with Spurrier only, than he should have asked out of his contract right away and forgo any signing bonuses due to him. This isn't college football, where some poor kid got screwed because the coach that recruited him left, this is the NFL. You are paid quite a bit to play a game and coaches come and go. He should not have expected Spurrier to be with him for the full duration of his contract.

He probably should have waited, because once Gibbs gets his line the way he wants it and can run the ball effectively, Gibbs will throw the ball and throw it deep a lot.

SkinsRock · 03-11-2005, 01:48 PM

If Coles was wondering how he would fit into Gibbs' offense, I can think of three people off top of my head that he could have asked about it: Gary Clark, Art Monk, and Ricky Sanders. They seemed to do okay in Gibbs "conservative, run-oriented offense".

sportscurmudgeon · 03-11-2005, 02:04 PM

Maybe - just maybe - part of the reason that people here are quick to jump on players who leave for larger contracts is that they have become accustomed to gloating when players leave other teams to come to the Redskins for larger contracts. When that happens, people here say that Danny Boy is all about winning and the other owner is a cheapskate who doesn't know sh*t from applebutter. Now things are happening in the other direction. So there's no chance to gloat about some other organization being a bunch of cheapskates, and so people need to find a scapegoat.

Just a thought to keep in mind: If you want to build a team of "core Redskins" - or "core Seahawks" in Seattle - you're going to have to do a lot of player searching because "core Whatevers" and "mercenaries" don't go together. When any team goes and hires a lot of mercenaries, it's hard for anyone in that locker room to feel that anything is more important than the value of the contract and the money going into the checking account. On the assumption that Joe Gibbs is trying to change all that, you will have to give him some time, because the Washington Redskins team he inherited was mostly mercenaries - people who came here only because Danny Boy had a big check for them.

I'm very glad to see that people are stating that they don't wish for car crashes or career ending injuries to befall ex-Redskin players - or any other players for that matter. That is a bit over the top.

I will make only one "excuse" for Coles. There was a point in the soap opera where he evidently agreed to forego his $5M bonus in exchange for his release - not a trade, his release. Then "things changed" and everyone got really pissy. Here's why I think the Skins FO made a mistake.

If they had just released Coles and saved the $5M, they would have had added cap room in 2005 - I calculate it to be about $3M but I defer to Crazy Canuck if he says I'm wrong here. Instead, they managed to spend $3M in cap room to get Santana Moss who is a player they probably aren't going to turn inot a #3M/year player. I think the FO's tactics here were very counter-productive and I don't think they were Coles' fault.

Whatever. It's water over the dam now. What's iomportant now is finding a way to assure that Patrick Ramsey is protected in 2006...

MTK · 03-11-2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Whatever. It's water over the dam now. What's iomportant now is finding a way to assure that Patrick Ramsey is protected in 2006...

ahmen!

skinsguy · 03-11-2005, 01:44 PM

I can't understand why some fans are making excuses for Coles. And, why are you guys hatin' on Santana Moss? Of course players look forward to playing for coaches, but that is no excuse to quit halfway through your contract just because your favorite coach quits.

Steve Spurrier liked his offensive players, but at times he didn't even know his defensive players names. How is that treating his players like men? Gibbs at least knows all of his players, and even though he gives most of the defensive responsiblity to Gregg Williams, he still takes an overall role with the entire team. At least Gibbs KNOWS all of his players by name.

It's easy to rag on the coach after one season....I don't know of many guys who could be away from the sport altogether for 12 years and comeback to lead a pro team to the playoffs or a championship.

Daseal · 03-11-2005, 05:17 PM

Crazy Cannuck - last time I checked Herm Edwards could get his team not just close, but into the AFC playoffs and should have been the AFC championship game. That's a far cry from 6-10 in the NFC.

CrazyCanuck · 03-11-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

Crazy Cannuck - last time I checked Herm Edwards could get his team not just close, but into the AFC playoffs and should have been the AFC championship game. That's a far cry from 6-10 in the NFC.

That's a fair point, but something tells me the team's record had little impact on Coles decision. He wants the ball deep.

Also maybe I'm a biased old man, but it amazes me that anyone that saw the Skins play in the 80s wouldn't want to play for Coach Gibbs. I guess times have changed.

skinsguy · 03-11-2005, 05:20 PM

How many years did Herm Edward spend away from the sport before becoming a coach?

How many Super Bowl rings does Edwards have as a head coach?

Daseal · 03-11-2005, 05:43 PM

Canuck - Gibbs did great things in the 80's. But this ain't the 80's no mo. I'm sure it was hard being on that offense last year. When you have a defense like we had, you have to win more than 6 games. It didn't require a lot of points.

If I were a player Herm Edwards seems like the coolest coach in the league IMO.

03-11-2005, 11:24 AM	#4
MTK Hail Raiser Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 53 Posts: 100,050	Re: Why the backstabbing? I have no hate for Pierce or Smoot at all. They gave the Skins more than a fair shot to re-sign them, and gave the team the chance to match. In the end they left for the better deal and I don't blame them one bit. As for Coles, I'm disappointed with what went down. I think he showed a real lack of maturity on his part for pouting when things weren't going his way in the offense. He comes off as being pretty selfish and overly concerned about his personal stats. Not that Snyder acted very mature either with his threatening comments, but the trigger for Snyder's tirade was all on Coles. In the end though I wish Coles the best. He had some very respectful things to say after it was all over and you have to give the guy some credit for that, he could have easily bashed the Skins like he did the Jets 2 years ago. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

03-11-2005, 12:06 PM	#5
cpayne5 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,807	Re: Why the backstabbing? The fact of the matter is that most fans don't understand the actual business dealings of player acquisition & retention. We're like a 5 year old kid that hasn't been told 'no' his whole life up until this offseason. So, with the help of anonymity that the warpath provides, people feel they can come on here and become instant geniuses and pronounce their know it all, knee-jerk reactions to events that upset them. I bet that for a lot of them it will be one of their only posts on this site (think how many disgruntled one-posters we've had just over the past 12 months!), and that they wouldn't use the same words if this were a public face-to-face forum. I've learned to live with it (read ignore). __________________ "It's not about what you've done, but what's been done for you."

03-11-2005, 01:30 PM	#6
Longtimefan Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Germantown, Md. Posts: 4,832	Re: Why the backstabbing? All this talk about "Core Redskins" which is a Gibbs phrase has been over used by so many ever since he uttered it. Pierce, as well as Smoot had an opportunity to demonstrate they wanted to be core players but they both chose to abandon the concept for a few dollars more. The Redskins made it perfectly clear how much they were going to pay each player before they departed, and each was offered a fair contract. I'm happy the team did not let the market dictate how much they should pay a player. Granted, Pierce had a good year, but only one and prior to last year he played primarily special teams. Therefore I am reluctant to label these guys "Core" because had they been the would still be here. My idea of a "Core Redskin"!! Darrell Green, one of the most talented players to ever wear the Redskins uniform. He had a multitude of opportunities to leave for a few dollars more but he chose to remain a Redskin. While there were others (I won't bother to mention them all) I know these are the kind of players Gibbs is looking for to fill his roster but in todays game that may be difficult to accomplish. However, I do wish him well in his attempt. Good Luck In 05 And Beyond!!

03-11-2005, 01:31 PM	#7
redrock-skins Impact Rookie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 783	Re: Why the backstabbing? If Coles signed on to be with Spurrier only, than he should have asked out of his contract right away and forgo any signing bonuses due to him. This isn't college football, where some poor kid got screwed because the coach that recruited him left, this is the NFL. You are paid quite a bit to play a game and coaches come and go. He should not have expected Spurrier to be with him for the full duration of his contract. He probably should have waited, because once Gibbs gets his line the way he wants it and can run the ball effectively, Gibbs will throw the ball and throw it deep a lot.

03-11-2005, 01:48 PM	#8
SkinsRock Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Crofton, MD Age: 56 Posts: 907	Re: Why the backstabbing? If Coles was wondering how he would fit into Gibbs' offense, I can think of three people off top of my head that he could have asked about it: Gary Clark, Art Monk, and Ricky Sanders. They seemed to do okay in Gibbs "conservative, run-oriented offense".

03-11-2005, 05:13 PM	#3
CrazyCanuck Serenity Now Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2,008	Re: Why the backstabbing? Pierce - The guy did a great job for us and I have no hard feelings. I think AP was the most "honest" of all these guys. He told the Redskins he'd seek the best deal he could and the Skins would have the chance to match any offer. He got his deal and the Skins decided not to match. Not to mention this is the guy's first (and maybe only) big payday so I'm not sure any of us would have handled it differently. I wish him the best, but I can't say the same for the Giants. Smoot - Definitely one of my favorite Skins. The guy always played hard and played hurt. He was a team leader and I wish we coulda kept him. But I will defer to Williams here. The guy obviously seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to D, so who am I to argue? Smoot got a decent amount more from Minny, and I'm kind of glad we showed a little spending restraint. I think in this case both sides were a little hypocritical with their comments. We said we wanted to keep him and Smooty said he wanted to stay here, but at the end of the day it seems neither side was willing to budge much to make that happen. So I can only assume we didn't want him as bad as we said, and he didn't want to stay here as much as he indicated. I have no hard feelings here either. The saddest part of this whole thing is probably smootsmack's name change. I have great memories of Smoot as a Skin and this won't really tarnish them. I just wish he wasn't such close friends with Champ. Coles - I've had time to calm down and think about it, but I still can't understand it. LC was my favorite Skin. I thought the guy was great and always played hard. He had great speed and instincts and usually made something out of nothing. Even on those brutal screens we kept running last year, LC was usually able to turn no gain into some gain. I just can't make sense of his logic here: - LC would rather leave the Skins coached by JOE GIBBS, to go play for the freakin' JETS?????? Nothing against the J-E-T-S or Herm Edwards but what is this 1970? Is Joe Namath there? I can't understand this. - LC didn't like the offense but he caught 90 balls! Only one WR in the NFL was thrown to more. Granted most were short routes but that's what the coach and team wanted (needed). Since when are WRs used exclusively deep? Maybe they should come up with new positions called SWR (short WR) and LWR (long WR). - If LC was a free agent and decided to leave I'd still be upset for the reasons above, but he got a $13M bonus 2 years ago. I know he liked Spurrier blah blah blah. Well no one said Spurrier would be here 7 years so I don't think that argument holds up. - He knew his cap hit would kill us and hurt the team that made him rich, but he didn't seem to care. As for the "$5M giveback", no one really knows the story and the bottom line is he gave nothing back. I figure Snyder said "f*^k him", he'll sit for 2 years and watch from his flat screen. But my guess is that Gibbs decided that was not the best route for team chemistry and decided to dump him, despite the hideous cap hit. And I respect Gibbs for sticking to his offer of letting non-Skins go. That being said we can't afford to bend over every time a player starts crying. I give Gibbs and the Skins a pass this time since LC was not Gibbs' signing. But I hope this is the last time we ever give in like this. I do have hurt feelings from LC's departure. I guess he wasn't exactly the guy we all thought he was. I hope he's happy playing for the JETS in the friggin' AFC. So long and good riddance. I'd hoped I'd have many great memories of Ramsey throwing TDs to LC all over the field. Instead I'll forever remember Coles as our $9 Million Dollar Baby.

03-11-2005, 02:04 PM	#9
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	Re: Why the backstabbing? Maybe - just maybe - part of the reason that people here are quick to jump on players who leave for larger contracts is that they have become accustomed to gloating when players leave other teams to come to the Redskins for larger contracts. When that happens, people here say that Danny Boy is all about winning and the other owner is a cheapskate who doesn't know sh*t from applebutter. Now things are happening in the other direction. So there's no chance to gloat about some other organization being a bunch of cheapskates, and so people need to find a scapegoat. Just a thought to keep in mind: If you want to build a team of "core Redskins" - or "core Seahawks" in Seattle - you're going to have to do a lot of player searching because "core Whatevers" and "mercenaries" don't go together. When any team goes and hires a lot of mercenaries, it's hard for anyone in that locker room to feel that anything is more important than the value of the contract and the money going into the checking account. On the assumption that Joe Gibbs is trying to change all that, you will have to give him some time, because the Washington Redskins team he inherited was mostly mercenaries - people who came here only because Danny Boy had a big check for them. I'm very glad to see that people are stating that they don't wish for car crashes or career ending injuries to befall ex-Redskin players - or any other players for that matter. That is a bit over the top. I will make only one "excuse" for Coles. There was a point in the soap opera where he evidently agreed to forego his $5M bonus in exchange for his release - not a trade, his release. Then "things changed" and everyone got really pissy. Here's why I think the Skins FO made a mistake. If they had just released Coles and saved the $5M, they would have had added cap room in 2005 - I calculate it to be about $3M but I defer to Crazy Canuck if he says I'm wrong here. Instead, they managed to spend $3M in cap room to get Santana Moss who is a player they probably aren't going to turn inot a #3M/year player. I think the FO's tactics here were very counter-productive and I don't think they were Coles' fault. Whatever. It's water over the dam now. What's iomportant now is finding a way to assure that Patrick Ramsey is protected in 2006... __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

03-11-2005, 01:44 PM	#11
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 6,766	Re: Why the backstabbing? I can't understand why some fans are making excuses for Coles. And, why are you guys hatin' on Santana Moss? Of course players look forward to playing for coaches, but that is no excuse to quit halfway through your contract just because your favorite coach quits. Steve Spurrier liked his offensive players, but at times he didn't even know his defensive players names. How is that treating his players like men? Gibbs at least knows all of his players, and even though he gives most of the defensive responsiblity to Gregg Williams, he still takes an overall role with the entire team. At least Gibbs KNOWS all of his players by name. It's easy to rag on the coach after one season....I don't know of many guys who could be away from the sport altogether for 12 years and comeback to lead a pro team to the playoffs or a championship. __________________ "Fire Up That Diesel!"

03-11-2005, 05:17 PM	#12
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 8,341	Re: Why the backstabbing? Crazy Cannuck - last time I checked Herm Edwards could get his team not just close, but into the AFC playoffs and should have been the AFC championship game. That's a far cry from 6-10 in the NFC.

03-11-2005, 05:20 PM	#14
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 6,766	Re: Why the backstabbing? How many years did Herm Edward spend away from the sport before becoming a coach? How many Super Bowl rings does Edwards have as a head coach? __________________ "Fire Up That Diesel!"

03-11-2005, 05:43 PM	#15
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 8,341	Re: Why the backstabbing? Canuck - Gibbs did great things in the 80's. But this ain't the 80's no mo. I'm sure it was hard being on that offense last year. When you have a defense like we had, you have to win more than 6 games. It didn't require a lot of points. If I were a player Herm Edwards seems like the coolest coach in the league IMO.

Why the backstabbing?

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