Sex Abuse Scandal Rocks Penn State

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You'd like to think (perhaps naively) that, even as far as coaches/institutions will go to test the limits of what's acceptable behavior, there's a line that any decent human being knows should not be crossed.

I would hope so. Or does absolute power corrupt all?

[SmootSmack]

VIDEO: NCAA President Mark Emmert will not rule out death penalty for Penn State - CBSSports.com

[12thMan]

Tragic

[mooby]

And now there's 3 accusers saying Sandusky molested them in the 70's/80's. I didn't think all the molesting started in the 90's but the fact that it probably happened for over 3 decades is just mind-boggling.

[djnemo65]

Guys, look, the statue is coming down. In fact, if it's still up whenever PSU plays its next game I'll ride with NC Skins and help tear it down. Actually I won't, but I'll ride along and will defend NC once he gets arrested. While I can't prove it, I'm reasonably sure that these Board member quotes arguing that the statue should stay up are coming from one of the five or so new members elected this year after running on pro-Paterno platforms. People like this: New Penn State Trustee Anthony Lubrano needs a dose of this little thing called reality (Video) | Larry Brown Sports

I do need to pushback against what I think has really been some piling on, here and other places. First, I'm not sure people realize that Penn State commissioned and paid for the Freeh Report. They didn't have to do that. More importantly, if they were trying to further suppress this story (as changing the channel in the student union is supposedly evidence of) they wouldn't have taken the lead in commissioning this type of report, or they would have farmed it out to someone less capable and unbiased than a former FBI director. The school has made some mistakes but it is trying to do the right thing moving forward and isn't getting enough credit for that. Everyone got fired, including Paterno before we knew the extent of his involvement (which ended up costing several board members their positions, not profiles in courage but still.) This stuff about changing the channel in the student union is an example. What do you think is more likely? That this was an order from up high to keep students in the dark? (Students who have like internet and stuff.) Or that this was the decision of some 12 dollar an hour shift mananager who probably has never been trained in PR and working under international media scrutiny? If they wanted to suppress this stuff they wouldn't have commissioned the report, simple as that.

SS, I don't get why you are so concerned about football players who had nothing to do with this but want federal scholarship funding cut for students who similarly had nothing to do with any of this, scholarships that allowed people like me to attend the most expensive state school in the country and are basically responsible for everything that I now have in my life. I get why people are angry but to just vindictively wish pain on anyone who has any PSU affiliation at all is just mean, and to show solicitude for football players (who can just transfer to a comparable institution easily) but not for regular students (who can't) is just perverse. I really don't get it.

[mooby]

djnemo, I had a feeling you would show up once the dust settled down in this thread, and to be clear, I don't have anything against most of the students that go to Penn State. Granted, I don't agree with the ones who are still supporting Paterno post-Freeh report, and I don't agree with his family, who are clearly only doing this to try and protect what remains of his tarnished legacy, but I don't have any desire to have their funding cut or for Penn State to get the academic death penalty.

I do think the football program should receive the death penalty though, and it's primarily based upon the fact that the man responsible for 3 decades of on-field success enabled a child molester for at least 10 years, and potentially more. I feel that nullifies any success they had on the field, and I think by allowing the football team to continue to exist will only invite more disruption and will serve to keep a volatile situation continuing long after the fact. I understand that doing so could potentially hurt all those players on the team today who haven't had anything to do with this, but unfortunately this is bigger than them and if they want to continue to play, they should have the option to transfer to another school and have the one-year dq waived. Every game they play as the Penn State football team could serve as a scene for a potential riot, with thousands of dissenters showing up to voice their opposition.

By giving the football program the death penalty, the NCAA would be serving an effective warning that if the country continues to put coaches and football programs up on a god-like pedestal, they would continue to let the opportunity for lies, deceit, and extreme misconduct like what happened at Penn State continue uninterrupted. I understand if you disagree completely, but a situation of this magnitude has to be dealt with appropriately. It wasn't just the fact that Jerry Sandusky did irreparable damage to these kids, it was also the fact that Spanier, Schultz, Curley, and Paterno put the reputation of their nationally renowned football program ahead of the welfare of the kids he harmed. For that, I think their nationally renowned football program shouldn't continue to exist.

I also understand much of what I just said isn't what your post is about, but I felt the need to clarify my opinion on this one.

[djnemo65]

I disagree with those people too Mooby, although their numbers are dwindling.

People realize that the death penalty means a 1-2 year ban from competition right? If anyone thinks that the NCAA is going to discontinue PSU football forever you're going to be disappointed. Personally, I questioned whether the NCAA has the authority to get involved in a criminal matter initially (and still do) although increasingly I'm thinking that a one or even two year ban might be in the best interests of the school going forward, given that people don't seem very receptive to legalistic jurisdictional arguments about NCAA bylaws. Although when schools have covered up rapes of young women instead of men to protect their football teams I don't remember this level of outrage. See eg: Colorado Lawsuit Alleged Rape Football Recruiting Party ; UM dean implicated 4 football players in gang rape, emails reveal ; This Is What Happens When You Accuse A Notre Dame Football Player Of Sexually Assaulting You

As long as we agree that schools like this should get similar penalties moving forward I have no problem with the death penalty being applied.

*Just to be clear I'm not saying that those incidents come close to the level of depravity we see in the Penn State case, only that if we are going to radically expand the jurisdiction of the NCAA we need to all understand that that is in fact what we're doing.

[SmootSmack]

Well, like I said DJ, it's how I felt at the moment. We're coming at this, of course, from two different perspectives. Penn State means a lot to you, and I know it means a lot to all those people who looked the other way and those who continue to justify/defend Paterno et al.

To me? Penn State means nothing. I've got friends with strong ties both past and present to Penn State. I'm sure it would sadden them to no end if Penn State is destroyed as an institution both academically and athletically. Hard for me to shed a tear though, as much as I know the damage could be far reaching.

Is it emotions talking? Sure, it probably is. But not unlike the emotions of those back in November who complained about people unfairly vilifying Joe Paterno

[Chico23231]

I agree with Mooby. The NCAA need to send a simple message, football programs are not above child abuse. The motive to cover up what was the cash cow of football and the importance of football and the university reputation is simply unacceptable. College sports needs to step back and really question themselves and make a commitment of nothing like this must never happen again. 1 year suspension of all football activities would send the proper message.

Boo hoo if Penn State football team cant play for one year, thats the type of selfishness we need to step back and look at. Once again, you simply dont understand how serious this is if the arguement is current players shouldnt be punished. Its not about current players, its the institution of the god-like like football program that needs punishment. Got to send a message.

[NC_Skins]

Seems I'm not alone.


Airplane banner makes threat if Paterno statue is not removed

[djnemo65]

Wait, so because people made irrational emotional arguments in November it's ok for you to make irrational emotional arguments now? I mean that's your argument right? You mean nothing to me SS, I mean I like it when you have inside info on the Skins but you're really just an avatar to me ... but that doesn't mean I want bad things to happen to you. In fact, I don't. Although the idea that PSU could be destroyed not only as a sports school (which is possible) but as an academic entity (which is not) reconfirms what other posts of yours have shown (and I'm talking about the facepalm-worthy post in November that speculated that state funding cuts might lead to Penn State closing up shop): that you have basically no idea how higher education works, how schools are funded, and what a reduction in federal aid money and football revenue for a grant-driven research school like Penn State would mean. Penn State currently is about 90 percent privately funded (and less than .5 percent of its budget comes from the Federal government, and then only in the form of Agricultural grants) and there have been calls from within for years to bump that up to 100 percent. The thinking is, if we're basically already a private school why not go all the way? The idea that by cutting scholarships to needy kids you precipitate the collapse of the school - rather than just further shutting out regular people like me from the best non-ivy league education one can get in PA - shows that you're a little bit out of your element here. I'm not saying you should understand this, only that you don't. And you don't. Peaceout.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Guys, look, the statue is coming down. In fact, if it's still up whenever PSU plays its next game I'll ride with NC Skins and help tear it down. Actually I won't, but I'll ride along and will defend NC once he gets arrested. While I can't prove it, I'm reasonably sure that these Board member quotes arguing that the statue should stay up are coming from one of the five or so new members elected this year after running on pro-Paterno platforms. People like this: New Penn State Trustee Anthony Lubrano needs a dose of this little thing called reality (Video) | Larry Brown Sports

Thank you. I'll drop you off at the closet corner, right before I ram it. You can youtube it. I envision it going something like this.

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I do need to pushback against what I think has really been some piling on, here and other places. First, I'm not sure people realize that Penn State commissioned and paid for the Freeh Report. They didn't have to do that. More importantly, if they were trying to further suppress this story (as changing the channel in the student union is supposedly evidence of) they wouldn't have taken the lead in commissioning this type of report, or they would have farmed it out to someone less capable and unbiased than a former FBI director. The school has made some mistakes but it is trying to do the right thing moving forward and isn't getting enough credit for that. Everyone got fired, including Paterno before we knew the extent of his involvement (which ended up costing several board members their positions, not profiles in courage but still.) This stuff about changing the channel in the student union is an example. What do you think is more likely? That this was an order from up high to keep students in the dark? (Students who have like internet and stuff.) Or that this was the decision of some 12 dollar an hour shift mananager who probably has never been trained in PR and working under international media scrutiny? If they wanted to suppress this stuff they wouldn't have commissioned the report, simple as that.

You ask if the decision to pull the plug on the Freeh report being announced was the work of administrators or a 12/hr shift manager? I think the bigger question here is does it really matter?

Even if some 12/hr shift manager is pulling the plug, wouldn't that also show you how rooted the PSU football culture is? Protect the brand. Protect the brand. Now, not only do you have 3 administrators and 1 head coach protecting the brand, but now you have all the departments across campus following their lead. This is by far the main issue at hand here. The culture and atmosphere that has been created in which the well being of human beings comes second to PSU football and PSU university.


This where I stand. I think PSU football should die. I do believe the school itself should stand because it is a valuable educational institution, but I think the football culture has created a monster that will not stop unless it's killed. I assure you, if allowed to continue, something else in the future will also be covered up as well. In fact, there will be even a stronger case for these individuals to cover up the next incident because they are going to even look more out of control if they reveal it.

Also, the fact that you have guys like the BoT (linked above) spewing that garbage about how this wasn't a PSU scandal or a PSU football scandal is ridiculous. These are the exact types of people that allowed the mess to happen to begin with. People in denial. People that put PSU above all else. I'm with Matty when he says that anybody still defending JoePa should put a gun in their mouth and pull the trigger.

[SmootSmack]

I'm not sure what part of "this is emotion talking" is hard to grasp

But whatever.

[SmootSmack]

As for my November post, I'm pretty sure I was talking about a DOE "death penalty" not a total shut down of the university.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I disagree with those people too Mooby, although their numbers are dwindling.

People realize that the death penalty means a 1-2 year ban from competition right? If anyone thinks that the NCAA is going to discontinue PSU football forever you're going to be disappointed. Personally, I questioned whether the NCAA has the authority to get involved in a criminal matter initially (and still do) although increasingly I'm thinking that a one or even two year ban might be in the best interests of the school going forward, given that people don't seem very receptive to legalistic jurisdictional arguments about NCAA bylaws. Although when schools have covered up rapes of young women instead of men to protect their football teams I don't remember this level of outrage. See eg: Colorado Lawsuit Alleged Rape Football Recruiting Party ; UM dean implicated 4 football players in gang rape, emails reveal ; This Is What Happens When You Accuse A Notre Dame Football Player Of Sexually Assaulting You

As long as we agree that schools like this should get similar penalties moving forward I have no problem with the death penalty being applied.

*Just to be clear I'm not saying that those incidents come close to the level of depravity we see in the Penn State case, only that if we are going to radically expand the jurisdiction of the NCAA we need to all understand that that is in fact what we're doing.

To be honest, I keep confusing myself on the death penalty. If the death penalty is only a 1 or 2 year ban, than I feel even more strongly that it be enforced, because 2 years of not playing football is miniscule compared to a decade of child abuse. I'm not sure what kind of penalty the NCAA will throw down here, but I think it could easily be the "death penalty." And I do agree with you in regards to the Colorado case mentioned above, any case where a football program is placed in higher regards than the welfare of any person is a case where harsh punishment should be meted out. I also say that as a fan of VT, knowing full well those words could come back to haunt me someday.