Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?

[steveo395]

Originally Posted by mooby

yeah i remember in 2004 when mcnair was injured, volek stepped in and was awesome with drew bennett. I'd love to have him as a backup qb. this year bennett didn't do anything with mcnair at qb.

he also didnt have mason on the other side this year

[That Guy]

guyss looking for vet min aren't going to be as good as ramsey... maybe on draft day i'm sitting on my 4th or 5th round pick and don't really see anyone i like there.

besides, if ramsey is great, you got a D brees situation and that's not a bad thing. No coach wants to purposefully lose games and ramsey could really help with job security by giving you a couple extra wins while you're waiting out your cap hell.

maybe not, maybe another top 5 pick would be ideal, but ramsey isn't bad for price/performance, he's young with some upside and you don't have to commit to a long term contract (like kitna etc would want). It really depends on how they think things through. losing a lot of games because you only felt like paying vet min for jeff blake is a good way to loses the locker room though.

[Huddle]

Originally Posted by That Guy

guyss looking for vet min aren't going to be as good as ramsey... maybe on draft day i'm sitting on my 4th or 5th round pick and don't really see anyone i like there.

besides, if ramsey is great, you got a D brees situation and that's not a bad thing. No coach wants to purposefully lose games and ramsey could really help with job security by giving you a couple extra wins while you're waiting out your cap hell.

maybe not, maybe another top 5 pick would be ideal, but ramsey isn't bad for price/performance, he's young with some upside and you don't have to commit to a long term contract (like kitna etc would want). It really depends on how they think things through. losing a lot of games because you only felt like paying vet min for jeff blake is a good way to loses the locker room though.

I just spent some time on a Dolphins board. The consensus there seems to be that Ramsey might be had for a draft pick between three and five and that he'd be a bargain at that price.

Some think Drew Brees will come their way. Others are skeptical about his shoulder.

I've watched Drew Brees play four or five times and I'm unimpressed. He reminds me of Pennington: very accurate, good timing, but a weak arm (and that was before the shoulder injury).

[That Guy]

bree's arm is definately better than pennington's, but he does have off days... I mean, the skins got 4 picks off him (but LT still beat us). pennington has had better guys to throw to as well (but tiny deep threats and a weak arm don't mix well i'm afraid).

ramsey isn't as flawed or old as a lot of other options, and he's got an arm so there's some hope. i'd gladly take a 4th.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by That Guy

bree's arm is definately better than pennington's, but he does have off days... I mean, the skins got 4 picks off him (but LT still beat us). pennington has had better guys to throw to as well (but tiny deep threats and a weak arm don't mix well i'm afraid).

ramsey isn't as flawed or old as a lot of other options, and he's got an arm so there's some hope. i'd gladly take a 4th.

I think that Ramsey is an upgrade from Frerotte and Rosenfels and I would press the Dolphins for a #3 in negotiations. I think we can find someone willing to give up a 3 for Patrick. The contract stuff is for them to work out. If a team wants an extension as part of the deal then we move on to the next team.
It's interesting to me that hardcore fans who have (presumably) seen every snap Patrick has taken could arrive at such varying opinions of his ability. I see him as extremely average. A strong, accurate thrower, handicapped by his lack of mobility and poor decision making. Others see him as a superstar, who would dazzle us if it weren't for that biased Joe Gibbs, who cares more about proving he wasn't wrong on Brunell than he does about winning.

[Huddle]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I think that Ramsey is an upgrade from Frerotte and Rosenfels and I would press the Dolphins for a #3 in negotiations. I think we can find someone willing to give up a 3 for Patrick. The contract stuff is for them to work out. If a team wants an extension as part of the deal then we move on to the next team.

I think Ramsey would be smart to sign a new deal with the Dolphins, say for three years, heavily weighted toward incentives. If he were willing to do that to make the trade work, I think the Dolphins would consider the three pick a bargain price.

It's interesting to me that hardcore fans who have (presumably) seen every snap Patrick has taken could arrive at such varying opinions of his ability. I see him as extremely average. A strong, accurate thrower, handicapped by his lack of mobility and poor decision making. Others see him as a superstar, who would dazzle us if it weren't for that biased Joe Gibbs, who cares more about proving he wasn't wrong on Brunell than he does about winning.

Well, there are many other positions in between those you mention. I don't have any doubt that Joe sees his Brunell-Ramsey decisions as being best for the team. It isn't an ego thing with him. But my not-so-humble opinion is that he's wrong.

I'm not a stats guy. Most individual statistics are worthless in my book. One exception I make is wins and losses. In 23 starts Ramsey was 10-13 (Chicago start last season not included). Over the same span, the team was 8-17 in games not started by Patrick.

I haven't seen a superstar performance, but Patrick was our best QB over a three year span and, although I'm resigned to his leaving, I think he might still be the best on our roster.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Huddle

I think Ramsey would be smart to sign a new deal with the Dolphins, say for three years, heavily weighted toward incentives. If he were willing to do that to make the trade work, I think the Dolphins would consider the three pick a bargain price.




Well, there are many other positions in between those you mention. I don't have any doubt that Joe sees his Brunell-Ramsey decisions as being best for the team. It isn't an ego thing with him. But my not-so-humble opinion is that he's wrong.

I'm not a stats guy. Most individual statistics are worthless in my book. One exception I make is wins and losses. In 23 starts Ramsey was 10-13 (Chicago start last season not included). Over the same span, the team was 8-17 in games not started by Patrick.

I haven't seen a superstar performance, but Patrick was our best QB over a three year span and, although I'm resigned to his leaving, I think he might still be the best on our roster.

We were 10-6 this year so how do you get the 8 wins when Ramsey was not the starter and what QB's do you have in that mix a couple of Spurier boys.

[Huddle]

Originally Posted by firstdown

We were 10-6 this year so how do you get the 8 wins when Ramsey was not the starter and what QB's do you have in that mix a couple of Spurier boys.

Over the same span when Ramsey was started, meaning 2002 -4, he was better than Spurrier's boys, who knew the system better than Ramsey, and better than Brunell in 2004.

Since Ramsey's only 2005 start was the Chicago win, we have no basis for comparing him to Brunell this past season.

[That Guy]

the wonderlic is general IQ test given after hours of workouts, so like the SATs, it is possible to study for them by taking hundreds and hundreds of practice questions a day. Its also possible campbell was suffering from heat exhaustion or some other minor condition that took his focus away from the test.

The test is meant to see how well you can think under pressure, its translation onto a football field has always been debatable.

McNabb did terribly on the wonderlic and he's still a franchise QB (though we now know he's lacking severly in off-field leadership skills).

[Huddle]

Originally Posted by That Guy

the wonderlic is general IQ test given after hours of workouts, so like the SATs, it is possible to study for them by taking hundreds and hundreds of practice questions a day. Its also possible campbell was suffering from heat exhaustion or some other minor condition that took his focus away from the test.

The test is meant to see how well you can think under pressure, its translation onto a football field has always been debatable.

McNabb did terribly on the wonderlic and he's still a franchise QB (though we now know he's lacking severly in off-field leadership skills).

Football isn't rocket science. There isn't anything that someone with a below average IQ can't learn if given enough repetition. It might take him more time, but he'll eventually get there.

Dan Marino scored a 16 on his wonderlic. Jeff George a 10. But low scores like this are the exception rather than the rule for QBs. If two players are about equal in athletic ability, you pick the brighter guy.

Intelligence can make a big difference at cornerback also. Pat Fischer played the game with his brain as much as his body.

[That Guy]

yeah, hence why i mentioned that the results are debateable. Most of the questions are general knowledge or logic problems, not football stuff. If you're below average intelligence you just have to rely/spend more time on rote memorization than drawing conclussion from axioms... but honestly, in any field, actual experience absolutely destroys book learning, and its probably more true in althletics than other fields.

[70Chip]

There are reports that Vince Young scored a 6. I don't think it means much though. I'm sure Pete Carrol would score a lot higher than 6, but he couldn't figure out a way to stop Vince. "Stupid is as stupid does".

Also Jason Campbell doubled his score from 14 his junior year to 28 his senior year. There's not supposed to be that sort of variation in the results. It renders the test suspect as a reliable indicator of intelligence.

On a completely unrelated topic, Dat Nguyen has retired after seven years with Dallas.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

There are reports that Vince Young scored a 6. I don't think it means much though. I'm sure Pete Carrol would score a lot higher than 6, but he couldn't figure out a way to stop Vince. "Stupid is as stupid does".

Also Jason Campbell doubled his score from 14 his junior year to 28 his senior year. There's not supposed to be that sort of variation in the results. It renders the test suspect as a reliable indicator of intelligence.

On a completely unrelated topic, Dat Nguyen has retired after seven years with Dallas.

The first score is usually the most telling, an individual can actually memorize the test or there abouts and increase his score which really doesn't say much for the test the second go round.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by offiss

The first score is usually the most telling, an individual can actually memorize the test or there abouts and increase his score which really doesn't say much for the test the second go round.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give the same exact test twice.

It's like any standardized test, you can learn techniques to take the test more effectively, so that's why guys will typically do better the 2nd time around.

[Huddle]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give the same exact test twice.

It's like any standardized test, you can learn techniques to take the test more effectively, so that's why guys will typically do better the 2nd time around.

The poster who wrote that Campbell's improvement from a 14 to a 28 put the value of the test in doubt was correct. I'd bet that the third test was given to rule out the possibility of cheating...getting an advance copy of the actual test he took. Since he scored a 27 on his third try, the low 14 is the mark you'd question.

Yes, you can learn strategies to improve your score on any test, but you don't go from a 14 to a 28. If this happened often, you'd toss the test out as worthless. But the test has been used by businesses for several years and has a good track record, so Campbell's 14 score is a mystery.