The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

Sometimes I hate it when Schneed writes post on threads like these. He has essentially the same opinion that I do regarding Collins versus Rattay but because he's smarter, he says it better which leaves me with nothing better to do than write this weak post.

To echo. Saunders would not have kept Collins on as part of his offense if he felt he had no ability to perform his duties as a backup. Did anyone in KC challenge Saunders/Vermeil about why are they keeping such a horrible waste of NFL talent on the team?

Brunell, Collins and Campbell looked equally bad in pre-season. Probably because they had a better understanding of the plays but the other 10 guys were intermittently out of postion.

I think I read a while back that Collins keeps himself in great physical shape. At age 37 his body isn't going to break down after a series of hits.

Or, Saunders realizes exactly who Todd Collins is, but also thinks that his boy Collins has been loyal to him for years, and deserves to reap the benefits of a injury to the guy ahead of him.

From Saunders' point of view, if the season is down the crapper anyway, why not put Collins in charge of his offense and powerful running game so that he can generate some hype around him. Maybe Collins very well deserves his shot in a favorable situation.

But to clarify: What's best for Todd Collins probably isn't whats best for the Washington Redskins.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'm saying that because Saunders likes him is not a good reason to have expectations for him. Every coach has his favorites. That doesn't make them good players necessarily, just overvalued by the team that coach is on.

Collins could be good, but the chances that he's a hidden talent at this point in his career are...well, not very high.

The most logical explination is that he (Saunders) just likes Collins and wants to see him succeed as opposed to another player, such as Rattay. He's not stupid or anything, or willing to sacrifice the betterment of the team for Todd Collins' game, but if Al Saunders won't get him PT, who will?

OK first off, is that your whole thing here? Trying to find hidden talent? I guess Gruden just missed the hidden talent that might be there, after all, he let him go, then signed Jeff Garcia, and traded for Jake Plummer.

San Fran was so enamored with that talent that they spent their #1 pick on Alex Smith.

The chances of Tim Rattay being a hidden talent are about the same as Todd Collins, IMO. Nill.

And I strongly disagree with the bolded part. Saunders doesn't just like Collins. Saunders' job is to run a good offense. He's comfortable that while Collins lacks talent, he can come in and manage a game well enough to not screw up. He's no long term answer, but he's a solid safety net when your #1 option goes down. Even coaches like to have insurance, that's what Collins is. Not the son Saunders wished he had.

You and I seem to be talking past each other an awful lot here. So let's just finally get down to the thing that will kill this ridiculous idea:

How do you propose to fit Rattay under our cap in 2007? Are you assuming we'll get him for vet min?

[skinsfan69]

I love a good old qb debate. IMO we need to upgrade the back-up Qb position. Sorry GTripp. I know Brunell is your boy but we can't go back to him being our QB if JC gets hurt. He just limits our offense too much. Only Brad Johnson is better at dink and dunk passes. So I would welcome Rattay. His on the field performance shows he can play in the NFL. And how are we so sure Collins can not play? He wouldn't have lasted this long as a back-up if he totally sucked.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Or, Saunders realizes exactly who Todd Collins is, but also thinks that his boy Collins has been loyal to him for years, and deserves to reap the benefits of a injury to the guy ahead of him.

That sentiment may be plausible for the short term but he's not going to keep him on his roster for more than a couple of years out of straight up loyalty. People just do not maintain success by sacrificing talent acquisition and winning with something as basic as personal loyalty. Saunders has been in the NFL for a long time. Long enough to know when to draw the line when it comes to loyalty.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

That sentiment may be plausible for the short term but he's not going to keep him on his roster for more than a couple of years out of straight up loyalty. People just do not maintain success by sacrificing talent acquisition and winning with something as basic as personal loyalty. Saunders has been in the NFL for a long time. Long enough to know when to draw the line when it comes to loyalty.

Agreed. GTripp, the way you talk about Saunders keeping Collins around just because he likes him makes it seem like you think Saunders is completely inept at his job. By insinuating that Saunders is playing favorites with Collins, you're basically saying Saunders lacks sound football judgment.

It's a severe overstatement of your case.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

That sentiment may be plausible for the short term but he's not going to keep him on his roster for more than a couple of years out of straight up loyalty. People just do not maintain success by sacrificing talent acquisition and winning with something as basic as personal loyalty. Saunders has been in the NFL for a long time. Long enough to know when to draw the line when it comes to loyalty.

I agree. But as the third quarterback, why not? Who else would fill that role, a role that essentially doesn't matter.

Well, I've suggested that Rattay deserves his roster spot and that we should pay him No. 2 QB money, a role he will step into in 2008. I don't think Al would particualrly enjoy such a suggestion, but I don't think he'd prevent it either if Gibbs came to him. He's too smart for that.

[crawfish]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

You have a good point there. Age saps his ability to heal from injuries and everyday beatings quickly. Brunell is best suited for a backup role at this point in his career.

Still if you graded him just by what he's capable of when healthy, he's one of the top 32 QBs in the league, which means someone is starting someone worse than Brunell. Of course, that's not our problem.

Don't pass off Brunells stats as garbage time without addressing the real story. It's honestly as if people think that the only team that ever plays in garbage time is us. All QBs play in garbage time. There's a certain expectation for a guy who's playing in garbage time, and if a guy exceeds it, thats a credit to him, not a knock on him.

Watch some of the highlight tapes. You may enjoy it since they don't make us relive the end of games like Minnesota and Tennessee.

Or relive at NY and at Phil when our offense looked like a crap.

[crawfish]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Agreed. GTripp, the way you talk about Saunders keeping Collins around just because he likes him makes it seem like you think Saunders is completely inept at his job. By insinuating that Saunders is playing favorites with Collins, you're basically saying Saunders lacks sound football judgment.

It's a severe overstatement of your case.

What about Gibbs keeping Brunell around? It's the same damn thing.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by crawfish

What about Gibbs keeping Brunell around? It's the same damn thing.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with your post. But I just feel the need to say I'm definitely not arguing that we should get rid of Brunell yet. He's still serviceable as a backup, but I wouldn't want him starting.

Honestly, a lot of this discussion is neither here nor there. My basic feeling is whoever the coaches want to be the backup QBs, fine with me, as long as it makes salary cap sense. It'd be completely stupid to break the bank for a 3rd QB this year, that's the main reason I'm advocating keeping Collins.

I think we'd all agree that we're hitching our hopes to the wagon of Jason Campbell this year, as well we should. He has by far the most talent on our team (and way more talent than Tim Rattay), and he gives us the best chance to win games at this point.

Backup QBs can be left to the coaching staff and whoever they pick, hey whatever. As long as you're not getting us into cap trouble by signing backup QBs, knock yourself out.

[724Skinsfan]

Yes, but isn't refreshing to be able to bicker over who the 3rd string QB should be rather than who the starting QB should be? A good indication of positive things to look forward to this upcoming season.

"Grey skies are gonna clear up..."

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I honestly can't see Rattay getting a better deal than Carr received ($2M per year), which is only slightly more than what Collins is getting. I could be wrong, but I think Rattay will probably get something very close to what Collins got ($1.5M per year), which is what $600K above vet. minimum?

[freddyg12]

best thread on here since the Briggs would be saga. Good job GT.

I think good points are made on both sides of this. I've been sayin on here for a while that we need to find somebody in the draft to groom as JC's backup. Roster space as well as cap space are both an issue.

Regardless of where you stand on this, we must all at least agree that if not this year, certainly next year we must get a young backup, draft or free agency. I actually thought Carr would've been a good signing for us if not for the logjam of old men we now have at qb.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I honestly can't see Rattay getting a better deal than Carr received ($2M per year), which is only slightly more than what Collins is getting. I could be wrong, but I think Rattay will probably get something very close to what Collins got ($1.5M per year), which is what $600K above vet. minimum?

Carr signed for 2 years, $6.2 million.

ESPN.com - NFL - Carr agrees with Panthers, will back up Delhomme

If Rattay got Carr money, we would cut Collins to save $1.2 million, but then eat up about $2.5 - $3.1 million in room, for a net hit to our cap of somewhere between $1.3 - $1.9 million. That would leave us with about $3.0 million in space, barely enough to sign rookies, and if we can manage to get the rookies squeezed in there, we'd have no wiggle room during the season. And you could forget about having the flexibility to trade for an Asante Samuel or Lance Briggs before the draft (maybe that's a good thing, I don't know).

Rattay may not get Carr money, but not too far below it. In any case, signing him would make our 2007 cap situation VERY tight. We could ditch Renaldo Wynn to help make room, but have you made your team any better by going from Collins to Rattay and dropping Wynn in the process?

You need to leave a little room for signing guys in season.

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I say sign Patrick Ramsey.

He signed in Denver.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by artmonkforhallofamein07

He signed in Denver.

Whoosh.

That was the sound of a joke going over your head.