Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener

[mheisig]

Sorry, but this whole debate seems kind of pointless. At this point we're not evaluating the RB on his individual merits because the line is completely debilitated. With a very, very few exceptions a RB is probably only going to be as good as his offensive line. Same goes for about 99% of QBs.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Sorry, but this whole debate seems kind of pointless. At this point we're not evaluating the RB on his individual merits because the line is completely debilitated. With a very, very few exceptions a RB is probably only going to be as good as his offensive line. Same goes for about 99% of QBs.

The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by dgack

The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.

To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.

Of course, I realize that Champ wasn't going to stay, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying. I am not complaining about the deal at all. I defended it then and still think it was the right decision at the time. What I am illustrating is precisely what we thiought we were getting THEN, and what we have NOW. When the deal occurred, CP was considered to be a team-defining RB. A franchise guy. A guy you build your team around.

Regardless of the Champ situation, I would love to hear the scenario where Portis has been the rock and foundation of this team we thought we were getting in that deal.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.

Everyone?????

The fact is and I am going to sum this whole debate up here and now, Portis is nothing more than a third down change of pace type back, or a big time back in Denver take your pick, I believe Portis's problem now is the fact that he starting to realize he wasnt as good as he, or a lot of others thought he was coming out of Denver, now he has his tail between his legs because he knows he can not take the pounding of tough running. He needs to be with Denver where he can run in space for big gains, like when he amassed almost 500 yds and 7-8 TD's against none existent defenses like he did against KC twice a year when he was in Denver. We were had by Shanahan, he saw Gibbs coming a mile away, just like the Jags and Brunell.

As for Bailey, yes he wanted out but we were under no obligation to give him away as we did, we could have franchised him, received 2 #1 picks, and kept our 2nd rd pick we threw in with the Portis deal, that would have brought back a whole lot of talent if utilized properly, lets start with a RB in that draft by the name of Stephen Jackson, I think he would have fit in with Gibbs type of pound the ball running game, we could have drafted some O-linemen to help him out as well with all those picks, maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess right now with our o-line if we properly addressed it and built real quality depth. What am I thinking Portis is worth all that and more, now I am making myself laugh!

3 words for Portis, DENVER, SYSTEM, BACK!

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by offiss

Everyone?????

The fact is and I am going to sum this whole debate up here and now, Portis is nothing more than a third down change of pace type back, or a big time back in Denver take your pick, I believe Portis's problem now is the fact that he starting to realize he wasnt as good as he, or a lot of others thought he was coming out of Denver, now he has his tail between his legs because he knows he can not take the pounding of tough running. He needs to be with Denver where he can run in space for big gains, like when he amassed almost 500 yds and 7-8 TD's against none existent defenses like he did against KC twice a year when he was in Denver. We were had by Shanahan, he saw Gibbs coming a mile away, just like the Jags and Brunell.

As for Bailey, yes he wanted out but we were under no obligation to give him away as we did, we could have franchised him, received 2 #1 picks, and kept our 2nd rd pick we threw in with the Portis deal, that would have brought back a whole lot of talent if utilized properly, lets start with a RB in that draft by the name of Stephen Jackson, I think he would have fit in with Gibbs type of pound the ball running game, we could have drafted some O-linemen to help him out as well with all those picks, maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess right now with our o-line if we properly addressed it and built real quality depth. What am I thinking Portis is worth all that and more, now I am making myself laugh!

3 words for Portis, DENVER, SYSTEM, BACK!

First, I don't know of many 3rd down backs who have racked up 3,000+ yards in Denver in 2 years and 2,800+ yards in Washington in 2 years.

Second, I stand corrected. You were among the minority who opposed the Portis trade. But you were also the same guy who cited Tatum Bell as evidence that we got hosed in the Portis trade and for the proposition that Portis is a system back. http://http://www.redskinswarpath.co...tis#post113951How is Tatum Bell doing these days? Didn't the Broncos have to sign some big-name back even though they can just plug guys like Quentin Griffin into the lineup? How is Quentin Griffin doing these days?

Third, who offered us 2 1st rounders for Bailey? Or are you making that up?

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by dgack

The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.

I don't think Portis deserves to be completely let off the hook. I would agree that his production has declined, but his production has declined right along with our offensive line. He was banged up last year, and I think he still has some lingering knee problems this year.

Like I said before, even if we had LT right now I don't think he'd get much behind this offensive line. Portis' production is down, but so is everyone else's, and just like John Madden says, "it all starts with the offensive line."

I just wish I could find someone to point fingers at with respect to the offensive line. The trainers is all I can think of, and I have a hard time blaming them for injuries.

[MTK]

Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.

I agree with that. Both seem to struggle, yet when Betts does no one even complains, but when it is Portis everyone starts saying "injury prone", "something is missing", etc etc. It seems very silly, and as Matty said if you wanna blame anyone blame the Oline.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by hooskins

I agree with that. Both seem to struggle, yet when Betts does no one even complains, but when it is Portis everyone starts saying "injury prone", "something is missing", etc etc. It seems very silly, and as Matty said if you wanna blame anyone blame the Oline.

With both of them struggling onl one thing has changed and that the injuries to our O line and one would have to assume thats the problem with the running game. One reason Portis takes more of a hit than Betts is what the team is paying him compared to Betts.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.

Ultimately you're dead on Matty, and the fact is that this offensive line is one of the worst in the league, and it will be impossible to rush behind it with anyone consistently.

But the point is this: Portis is averaging 3.8 yards an attempt now on 115 carries for 433 yards. That's a crapload of carries to still be in the 3.8 range.

Betts only has 47 attempts through 7 games. 2.9 y/a possibly reflects on an unlucky streak in a small sample size.

I think a lot of us would like to see what Betts can do taking the lead on Portis for awhile. If he can give the running game some semblance of competancy, even if that's only 4.2 yards/carry, our offense can make a drastic improvement. If Betts is useless, give Rock a chance when he gets healthy. Both Betts and Rock have been effective runners in the past (as of course has Portis).

Portis' blocking has been too inconsistent this season to warrant keeping him in the starting lineup as a pass blocker. Even when the blocking is good, he's not creating the big play.

This offense is just terrible right now, has been for the last two games, and something has to be done. We can't really do anything with the line right now, so we either have to change the back or the quarterback or the receivers.

P.S.-I'm not suggesting we change the quarterback.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Ultimately you're dead on Matty, and the fact is that this offensive line is one of the worst in the league, and it will be impossible to rush behind it with anyone consistently.

But the point is this: Portis is averaging 3.8 yards an attempt now on 115 carries for 433 yards. That's a crapload of carries to still be in the 3.8 range.

Betts only has 47 attempts through 7 games. 2.9 y/a possibly reflects on an unlucky streak in a small sample size.

I think a lot of us would like to see what Betts can do taking the lead on Portis for awhile. If he can give the running game some semblance of competancy, even if that's only 4.2 yards/carry, our offense can make a drastic improvement. If Betts is useless, give Rock a chance when he gets healthy. Both Betts and Rock have been effective runners in the past (as of course has Portis).

Portis' blocking has been too inconsistent this season to warrant keeping him in the starting lineup as a pass blocker. Even when the blocking is good, he's not creating the big play.

This offense is just terrible right now, has been for the last two games, and something has to be done. We can't really do anything with the line right now, so we either have to change the back or the quarterback or the receivers.

P.S.-I'm not suggesting we change the quarterback.

Changing the feature back only makes sense if you think the other guys can do a better job. After having watched Betts for years, I love the guy and want to see him get more carries, but I don't see him doing a better job than Portis. I'm frankly tired of hearing complaints about Portis when the guy is usually getting hit before he gets to the line of scrimmage. Hopefully the line will improve and this entire discussion will be a moot point.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Changing the feature back only makes sense if you think the other guys can do a better job. After having watched Betts for years, I love the guy and want to see him get more carries, but I don't see him doing a better job than Portis. I'm frankly tired of hearing complaints about Portis when the guy is usually getting hit before he gets to the line of scrimmage. Hopefully the line will improve and this entire discussion will be a moot point.

Well of course, but I think Portis' performance leaves a lot to be desired.

If Portis was a little quicker, he wouldn't get hit near the line quite so often. The line has been bad, but so has CP.

I think a change at RB would help. I don't think it would help a lot, because the line is still bad, but even if it just helps a little, it's a good move then, is it not?

Of course, if the line gets it together, Portis or Betts could have success. I just want the back in there that gives us the best chance to win, and at this point in time, I can't really say that it's Clinton Portis.

[DieHardSkinsFan777]

Portis is the better back of the two. But he is clearly not the back he once was.

If he doesn't pick it up, I see CP departing at the end of this season.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

CP is the better back. Like most said, he is better in pass protection. However, I credit one of JC's fumbles in the NE game to Portis missing his block.

I think Portis needs to rest. Just because he has more talent, doesn't mean that he is always the better choice. I would also like to see a game where one back gets all the carries. Let's see if that can get somebody into a rhythm, and whether that will improve our rushing attack.