blow it up

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I believe we are pretty close to "blowing it up." Blache and Buges may retire and Zorn, Sherman Smith, and Danny Smith are under heavy fire.

Worst of all, a look at our personnel reveals serious deficiencies. Along the offensive line, Pete Kendall is a free agent, Jon Jansen and Casey Rabach are liabilities and should be replaced as soon as possible, Chad Rinehart has yet to dress for a single game, Heyer isn't a starter IMO, and we don't have anyone else who looks like he can become a solid starter. In short, Chris Samuels is our only solid player and he's over 30.

At quarterback, Jason looks like a very good player when he has protection and healthy weapons and a mediocre player when things are going badly. Todd Collins has a year or two left in the tank, if he's still on the roster in 2009 and 2010. Colt Brennan is an unknown quantity (despite the fact that so many amateur scouts believe he is Jesus Christ Jr).

At wide receiver, Moss is a very good #1 when completely healthy and an average #2 when he's not totally healthy. Unfortunately, he's rarely 100% healthy. ARE is a #3 receiver. Thomas has been unproductive. Kelly can't sniff the field. Thrash is done. For people who want a "true #1," how do you intend to snag him? Waste a draft pick on a guy who won't produce for a few years when we need that pick for linemen? Go out in free agency and waste dollars on a guy when we need that cash for linemen? Give Thomas and Kelly more time.

The defensive line is a mess. Jason Taylor and Cornelius Griffin need to go. Andre Carter is inconsistent. Anthony Montgomery has yet to show his full potential. Kedric Golston is a nice backup, but I don't see him as a full-time starter.

The linebacker corps is a mess. London Fletcher is a stud and I should never have doubted him, but how much longer can he play at this level, 1 or 2 years? Marcus Washington is gone. Rocky McIntosh got benched for Fincher. HB Blades isn't a starter.

We have holes at cornerback. Shawn Springs needs to go. He is injured far too often and isn't worth the money he is paid. Fred Smoot is awful. I love the guy, but he can't play this game anymore. I would bet money that DeAngelo Hall is gone in the offseason, unless we seriously overpay for his services. The only solid, fairly young corner on our roster is Carlos Rogers. Beyond him, we've got big problems.

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I believe we are pretty close to "blowing it up." Blache and Buges may retire and Zorn, Sherman Smith, and Danny Smith are under heavy fire.

Worst of all, a look at our personnel reveals serious deficiencies. Along the offensive line, Pete Kendall is a free agent, Jon Jansen and Casey Rabach are liabilities and should be replaced as soon as possible, Chad Rinehart has yet to dress for a single game, Heyer isn't a starter IMO, and we don't have anyone else who looks like he can become a solid starter. In short, Chris Samuels is our only solid player and he's over 30.

At quarterback, Jason looks like a very good player when he has protection and healthy weapons and a mediocre player when things are going badly. Todd Collins has a year or two left in the tank, if he's still on the roster in 2009 and 2010. Colt Brennan is an unknown quantity (despite the fact that so many amateur scouts believe he is Jesus Christ Jr).

At wide receiver, Moss is a very good #1 when completely healthy and an average #2 when he's not totally healthy. Unfortunately, he's rarely 100% healthy. ARE is a #3 receiver. Thomas has been unproductive. Kelly can't sniff the field. Thrash is done. For people who want a "true #1," how do you intend to snag him? Waste a draft pick on a guy who won't produce for a few years when we need that pick for linemen? Go out in free agency and waste dollars on a guy when we need that cash for linemen? Give Thomas and Kelly more time.

The defensive line is a mess. Jason Taylor and Cornelius Griffin need to go. Andre Carter is inconsistent. Anthony Montgomery has yet to show his full potential. Kedric Golston is a nice backup, but I don't see him as a full-time starter.

The linebacker corps is a mess. London Fletcher is a stud and I should never have doubted him, but how much longer can he play at this level, 1 or 2 years? Marcus Washington is gone. Rocky McIntosh got benched for Fincher. HB Blades isn't a starter.

We have holes at cornerback. Shawn Springs needs to go. He is injured far too often and isn't worth the money he is paid. Fred Smoot is awful. I love the guy, but he can't play this game anymore. I would bet money that DeAngelo Hall is gone in the offseason, unless we seriously overpay for his services. The only solid, fairly young corner on our roster is Carlos Rogers. Beyond him, we've got big problems.

Nice post. A sad reality. This roster is not as good as alot of fans here want to believe, it just isn't.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by PennSkinsFan

Nice post. A sad reality. This roster is not as good as alot of fans here want to believe, it just isn't.

.......and thats because we are always looking for the "blue chip", "blue collar" player. we have no one who is a professional at locating talent. Getting us true talent throught he draft. ...or is it more we have no one who is capable of training the new talent to due their jobs?

like someone else said....one draft will not change the dimension of this team. We need several drafts. and starting with both lines is going to be very important. It's ok to have one or two "blue chip, blue collar" players on the team to fill in on a game by game basis but not accross the whole line. On both sides of the ball. We have second rate players playing second rate ball and injuries have topped it off.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

.......and thats because we are always looking for the "blue chip", "blue collar" player. we have no one who is a professional at locating talent. Getting us true talent throught he draft. ...or is it more we have no one who is capable of training the new talent to due their jobs?

like someone else said....one draft will not change the dimension of this team. We need several drafts. and starting with both lines is going to be very important. It's ok to have one or two "blue chip, blue collar" players on the team to fill in on a game by game basis but not accross the whole line. On both sides of the ball. We have second rate players playing second rate ball and injuries have topped it off.

i mostly agree with you and alot of what is being said here by reasonable minds but have we done that bad in drafting in the 1st or 2nd round? what O lineman should we have drafted over ST, rogers or landry? only poor high draft choices weve had have been taylor jacobs (i wanted mike doss so you have to question anything i think), ramsey (with qbs you take your chances and keep taking them till you find your man) and possibly JC. am i missing some 1st or 2nd round pick that has been a bust for us? (rocky maybe?) should we have drafted some O lineman over cooley in the 3rd?

go skins!!

[Rock Your Face]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

i mostly agree with you and alot of what is being said here by reasonable minds but have we done that bad in drafting in the 1st or 2nd round? what O lineman should we have drafted over ST, rogers or landry? only poor high draft choices weve had have been taylor jacobs (i wanted mike doss so you have to question anything i think), ramsey (with qbs you take your chances and keep taking them till you find your man) and possibly JC. am i missing some 1st or 2nd round pick that has been a bust for us? (rocky maybe?) should we have drafted some O lineman over cooley in the 3rd?

go skins!!

A fair point, but, you draft Merriman instead of Rogers and you re-sign Ryan Clark so you don't have to spend a pick on Landry. Jacobs was obviously a joke, and the three 2nd round picks this year have been awful. You want receivers? Fine, just don't waste a 2nd round pick on a 3rd damn tight end when its arguably already your 2nd deepest position (after RB).

This is the whole point w/ the 'Skins, individually, each move does not look that bad when viewed in a vacuum. But when you look at the big picture, you constantly see the 'Skins having to make moves that are solely to compensate for past mistakes, instead of moving forward or building depth. Some examples:

(1) The previously mentioned drafting of Landry, which was necessitated by the terrible signing of Archuletta, instead of re-signing Clark.

(2) Not using a draft pick this year on a DE, when there were plenty available. What happens? Daniels rips up his knee and we ship out a 2nd rounder for Taylor.

(3) Signing Brandon Lloyd, so we then have to spend 2 picks on receivers.

[KI Skins Fan]

I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

Nevertheless, I don't blame Zorn for anything because I feel that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato took too much of a risk by elevating Zorn to a position too far above the level of Zorn's previous experience. Zorn as the OC and QB coach working for a more qualified HC may have worked out fine for everyone.

I believe that the biggest problem we have in building a contender is the tendency of management to overpay, both in dollars and draft picks, for players who are too old to build with at the time we get them. Management has shown themselves to be infatuated with big names and to be prone to panic and overpay for older veterans when there is an injury to a starter. This, in turn, has lead to the loss of good young starters and the lack of quality young depth acquired via the draft.

For example, looking back, perhaps we should have paid the big bucks for Derrick Dockery. This would not be a case of 20-20 hindsight if it had been the policy and practice of the organization to retain young stars who are free agents versus signing older big names in free agency.

We have two very good examples of both sides of this policy that occurred this season. We have Jason Taylor for whom we paid 2nd and 6th round draft picks knowing that we would get a maximum of 2 years service out of him. Bad idea unless he's going to lead you to the Super Bowl. On the other hand, we have DeAngelo Hall, a young talented player we got for next to nothing because he was released by a senile old man in Oakland. Now, that's a great pickup.

I think that the examples of Taylor and Hall illustrate that there is either the lack of a philosophical foundation to the management's dealings or the lack of self-discipline on the part of management to stick to the plan.

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.

[over the mountain]

When zorn was hired i wondered (on here too before the season started) if JC doesnt play well if zorn gets the chance, like all new coaches, to hand pick his qb and be judged on the success of his hand picked guy.

fact is (well ok its not really fact) JC does not have the skills zorn needs in a qb to run his offense. Zorn didnt pick him, tried to make a go of it and will try again next year with JC, BUT at some point (maybe 2010 draft) zorn gets to pick his guy that will determine zorn's success as a coach. we cant judge zorn or his scheme when he has an orange but needs an apple. (<<<probaly the most insightful football iq sentence i have ever made!)

let zorn go grocery shopping for his qb before we say the man cant cook.

go skins!!

[BrunellMVP?]

how do we move forward? how do we evoke change?
What "change" needs to be done? Personally, I think we need to limit the owner's influence on the team (to the extent possible) this includes getting him out of the draft room, and removing his pal Vinny Cerrato. We also need a GM. We also need better scouting (or to listen to the ones we have).

We as fans need to take a stand. We cannot tolerate more of the same...
we've seen this show before, the ending is decidedly disappointing.

We've got one more home game- how will we voice our disapproval? I'm not suggesting booing, but there should certainly be a COORDINATED EFFORT to voice our displeasure.
Maybe we should ALL forgo redskin colors and wear black (signifying both the death of the season and hopefully the figurative death of cerrato). Ideas?

[JWsleep]

There's lots of work to do here, people.

My feeling is that JC is not one of the big worries. The o-line, the D-line, the LBs are all more pressing needs. That's a HUGE problem. JC may not be one of those guys who wins games single handedly, but he can do the job with a good cast of supporting characters, IMO.

Coaches: Zorn gets one more year. He may not have to make the playoffs, but he's got to show real improvement. He needs an experienced WC coordinator to take some of the pressure off, as well. He needs a new o-line coach too, much as I love Buges. There's a clash of philosophies there, I think. (Not that Buges hasn't done all that's been asked of him. He has. It's just that someone really versed in the WC makes more sense.) Blache: give him another year, but that's it, and please give him some linemen! Danny Smith: not sure what he's done to save his job. Get someone new.

Vinny: we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future, I bet. That's the real bummer. Hope he's learned something from the collapse this year. We can only fantasize about a real GM.

Bottom line: there are a few pieces here, but we've got tons of work to do. BUt to all those calling for a total tear-down: there's a salary cap. Plus, other teams want the good players too. It's not Madden. We're stuck with lots of these guys for the next few years. My guess is, in the best case, it's 2-3 years to get better. And that's if everything we do works out and Vinny grows a brain. If not, well, it's going to remain painful.

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

There's lots of work to do here, people.

My feeling is that JC is not one of the big worries. The o-line, the D-line, the LBs are all more pressing needs. That's a HUGE problem. JC may not be one of those guys who wins games single handedly, but he can do the job with a good cast of supporting characters, IMO.

Coaches: Zorn gets one more year. He may not have to make the playoffs, but he's got to show real improvement. He needs an experienced WC coordinator to take some of the pressure off, as well. He needs a new o-line coach too, much as I love Buges. There's a clash of philosophies there, I think. (Not that Buges hasn't done all that's been asked of him. He has. It's just that someone really versed in the WC makes more sense.) Blache: give him another year, but that's it, and please give him some linemen! Danny Smith: not sure what he's done to save his job. Get someone new.

Vinny: we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future, I bet. That's the real bummer. Hope he's learned something from the collapse this year. We can only fantasize about a real GM.

Bottom line: there are a few pieces here, but we've got tons of work to do. BUt to all those calling for a total tear-down: there's a salary cap. Plus, other teams want the good players too. It's not Madden. We're stuck with lots of these guys for the next few years. My guess is, in the best case, it's 2-3 years to get better. And that's if everything we do works out and Vinny grows a brain. If not, well, it's going to remain painful.

It has been "it's 2-3 years to get better" mentality for the last freaking twenty years! I am tired of it.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by mredskins

It has been "it's 2-3 years to get better" mentality for the last freaking twenty years! I am tired of it.

Who's not? But, like I said, that's the BEST CASE SCENARIO, IMO. Likely as not, as long as Vinny (and an unreformed Danny) are running the show, it'll be longer than 2-3 years.

[mredskins]

^^^ Yes I was trying to be a smart a$$.

[Paintrain]

I'm willing at this point to go into '09 as a rebuilding year. Cut ties with some of the old, less productive vets like Griffin, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Jansen, Kendall, Smoot, even ARE. What I saw yesterday was an old, slow team with no playmakers on defense and very limited offensive options.

I've been denying the obvious but we are still suffering from the aborted Marty era. We had a chance to recover when Spurrier was hired but screwed that one up. We took a small step forward with Gibbs but didn't really make true progress. I was among the fooled in thinking that since we were a playoff team last year and returned most of the team that we'd be contenders. Wow, was I wrong.

[doughtydoubter]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'm willing at this point to go into '09 as a rebuilding year. Cut ties with some of the old, less productive vets like Griffin, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Jansen, Kendall, Smoot, even ARE. What I saw yesterday was an old, slow team with no playmakers on defense and very limited offensive options.

I've been denying the obvious but we are still suffering from the aborted Marty era. We had a chance to recover when Spurrier was hired but screwed that one up. We took a small step forward with Gibbs but didn't really make true progress. I was among the fooled in thinking that since we were a playoff team last year and returned most of the team that we'd be contenders. Wow, was I wrong.

im with you a hundred percent..cut the vets bring in the youth