Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

[Ruhskins]

I think it is safe today we have a lot of untalented players on defense that are not the best fit for the 3-4.

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I think it is safe today we have a lot of untalented players on defense that are not the best fit for the 3-4.

I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by donofriose

I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.

Boom! Preach it

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by donofriose

I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.

Scheme matters when you don't have the right players. This team decided to make a major in switch on defense, yet they f'ed up by not getting the right players and a good DC that can work in the transition. Honestly, I don't care what defensive scheme they use, just get the right players period. Get a true 3-4 NT, get some ILBs that can cover TEs, and fix the safety debacle.

I know this defense has lacked talent in many areas. But things are worst when you don't have talent, you try to fit players in the wrong scheme, and we don't have a coach that can work with these deficiencies. So unless you're going to have Bill Bellichick or Wade Phillips coach our defensive unit, scheme matters and having the right players for the right scheme matters as well.

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Scheme matters when you don't have the right players. This team decided to make a major in switch on defense, yet they f'ed up by not getting the right players and a good DC that can work in the transition. Honestly, I don't care what defensive scheme they use, just get the right players period. Get a true 3-4 NT, get some ILBs that can cover TEs, and fix the safety debacle.

I know this defense has lacked talent in many areas. But things are worst when you don't have talent, you try to fit players in the wrong scheme, and we don't have a coach that can work with these deficiencies. So unless you're going to have Bill Bellichick or Wade Phillips coach our defensive unit, scheme matters and having the right players for the right scheme matters as well.

Bellichick has proven he cannot coach defenses anymore. They are not forcing players to play out of scheme. Carriker is a good 3-4 end. Cofield is an average NT, could we upgrade yes we could but he is not the biggest problem right now. Jenkins has not proven anything but he is a prototypical 3-4 end. Orakpo and Kerrigan are good 3-4 outside linebackers. I agree we need to upgrade the 3-4 ILBs but our linebackers would not be good if we played a 4-3 or a 3-4. It is not like these players are out of position. The secondary is obviously terrible. We don't have players that would fit well in a 4-3 or a 3-4, because the truth is those players are just not good.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by donofriose

Bellichick has proven he cannot coach defenses anymore. They are not forcing players to play out of scheme. Carriker is a good 3-4 end. Cofield is an average NT, could we upgrade yes we could but he is not the biggest problem right now. Jenkins has not proven anything but he is a prototypical 3-4 end. Orakpo and Kerrigan are good 3-4 outside linebackers. I agree we need to upgrade the 3-4 ILBs but our linebackers would not be good if we played a 4-3 or a 3-4. It is not like these players are out of position. The secondary is obviously terrible. We don't have players that would fit well in a 4-3 or a 3-4, because the truth is those players are just not good.

I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel he'd be a much better DE in our D).

[GridIron26]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel he'd be a much better DE in our D).

I agree with this, I'm not sure why they couldn't find a decent NT too but I think it probably means that they truly believe that Cofield is the answer.

[REDSKINS4ever]

Originally Posted by GridIron26

I agree with this, I'm not sure why they couldn't find a decent NT too but I think it probably means that they truly believe that Cofield is the answer.

I heard Aikman say once that Cofield is not a conventional NT. Cofield in fact played NT at Northwestern. As for them not finding a decent nose tackle, the scouts are not looking at the NTs who play in 3-4 defenses nationwide like Alabama, Stanford, Maryland, Notre Dame, and other NCAA programs who run the 34 defense. When they signed Ma'ake Kemoeatu two years ago, they thought his size would be enough. But the guy couldn't play NT at all.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever

I heard Aikman say once that Cofield is not a conventional NT. Cofield in fact played NT at Northwestern. As for them not finding a decent nose tackle, the scouts are not looking at the NTs who play in 3-4 defenses nationwide like Alabama, Stanford, Maryland, Notre Dame, and other NCAA programs who run the 34 defense. When they signed Ma'ake Kemoeatu two years ago, they thought his size would be enough. But the guy couldn't play NT at all.

How do you know what scouts are looking at?

Kemo's problem here was he couldn't get healthy. He's made a bit of a comeback with the Ravens.

Former Utah standout Ma'ake Kemoeatu returns to the Baltimore Ravens after sitting out last season | Deseret News

[REDSKINS4ever]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

How do you know what scouts are looking at?

Kemo's problem here was he couldn't get healthy. He's made a bit of a comeback with the Ravens.

Former Utah standout Ma'ake Kemoeatu returns to the Baltimore Ravens after sitting out last season | Deseret News

Simply because mostly every player involved in the defensive line rotation is either a free agent signing that played in the 4-3 defense with some other NFL team, a draft choice that played in a 4-3 in college such as Jarvis Jenkins at Clemson, or traded for some player that played in the 4-3 defense previously(Adam Carriker). It seems to me that the scouts would be doing the same thing that the Steelers and Ravens are doing. Terrace Cody played in a 3-4 defense at Alabama and was a 2nd round draft choice of the Ravens 2 years ago.

Not to mention Orakpo, Kerrigan, Riley, Keenan Robinson, and a few other LBs played as middle linebackers and/or defensive ends in a 4-3 defense in college and not in the 3-4. Its obvious as clearly as the eyes can see that the Redskins scouts are doing a poor job at scouting players who fit Haslett's 3-4 defense to a T. Sure, you can have natural DEs as Kerrigan and Orakpo play OLB in the 3-4, but they are not NATURAL 3-4 OLBs. They only fit because of their athletic ability and awareness. Same thing goes for Perry Riley. He didn't start a game in the 3-4 defense until his second year because he had to learn the scheme just like Keenan Robinson is doing now.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever

Simply because mostly every player involved in the defensive line rotation is either a free agent signing that played in the 4-3 defense with some other NFL team, a draft choice that played in a 4-3 in college such as Jarvis Jenkins at Clemson, or traded for some player that played in the 4-3 defense previously(Adam Carriker). It seems to me that the scouts would be doing the same thing that the Steelers and Ravens are doing. Terrace Cody played in a 3-4 defense at Alabama and was a 2nd round draft choice of the Ravens 2 years ago.

Not to mention Orakpo, Kerrigan, Riley, Keenan Robinson, and a few other LBs played as middle linebackers and/or defensive ends in a 4-3 defense in college and not in the 3-4. Its obvious as clearly as the eyes can see that the Redskins scouts are doing a poor job at scouting players who fit Haslett's 3-4 defense to a T. Sure, you can have natural DEs as Kerrigan and Orakpo play OLB in the 3-4, but they are not NATURAL 3-4 OLBs. They only fit because of their athletic ability and awareness. Same thing goes for Perry Riley. He didn't start a game in the 3-4 defense until his second year because he had to learn the scheme just like Keenan Robinson is doing now.

You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.

[REDSKINS4ever]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.

I understand what you're saying but it would benefit the coaches, the players they have, and the players that they will draft, sign, and trade for in the future if they just played the 4-3 defense.

[MTK]

Improve talent first and foremost (especially in the secondary) and everything else will take care of itself. The 3-4 vs the 4-3 talk is so overblown its unbelievable. Amazing how we heard very little of this debate last year when the D was actually decent.

[Bishop Hammer]

Yeah. Talent can overcome a lot of shortcomings. Problem is Shanny has no idea what qualifies as talent on the defensive side of the ball.

And, judging from his first two seasons, he barly knows it on the offensive side.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.

Why is any of that important for us? Name a 3-4, 3-4/hybrid that was/is any good without an elite NT?

So we lack the key ingredient, and then the same mistake takes some of our best players out of position. It forces Fletcher into single coverage away from the middle of the field, which never has to happen given the right scheme. It doesn't let Orakpo rush the passer every down.

The defense is indefensible. Injury is the cover story, but the devil is in the details. We lack the right guys for what we're trying to do, and we force guys we do have out of their best-fit position. It's there on every play, no chance of missing it.