NFL Anthem Policy

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by punch it in

The players cant help if a group ( a big, powerful, white group) of people choose to turn a blind eye to the heart of the matter and paint them as unpatriotic hooligans. I think that it certainly pushed racism to the forefront. The question now is do people care? Usually if a certain cause does not directly affect someone they probably will not care about it. Sad but true.


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You’re missing the point - those big powerful white (possible closet racists) are there and in power. You can’t ignore that. That is reality. Because of the noise these powerful men (and their constituents) have made, the discussion has changed from what they supposedly wanted it to be. Instead of talking about white cops killing young black men, were talking about young black men allegedly disrespecting the flag.

The conversation has changed. they have it in their power to redirect the conversation back to what’s really important, but they’ve chosen not to. I blame them for not finding a new strategy to use their platform to get people talking about IMPORTANT things again. We’ll never see progress if both sides just keep digging their heels in and doing the same things.


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[punch it in]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

You’re missing the point - those big powerful white (possible closet racists) are there and in power. You can’t ignore that. That is reality. Because of the noise these powerful men (and their constituents) have made, the discussion has changed from what they supposedly wanted it to be. Instead of talking about white cops killing young black men, were talking about young black men allegedly disrespecting the flag.

The conversation has changed. they have it in their power to redirect the conversation back to what’s really important, but they’ve chosen not to. I blame them for not finding a new strategy to use their platform to get people talking about IMPORTANT things again. We’ll never see progress if both sides just keep digging their heels in and doing the same things.


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Well BLM doesn’t hold their protests during the National Anthem and the same white folks call bullshit on them. I hear what you are saying but I am just saying minds are made up already and racists will never give a crap about a dead black man no matter what the platform. Racism is a disease just like cancer and unfortunately they both find a way to hang around. To paint the kneelers as unpatriotic is just crap that is all im saying really. I wish i had a cure for racism. I wish i had a cure for cancer. I don’t. All I can do is call bullshit bullshit when I see it. Gives me some sense of satisfaction I guess.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by punch it in

Well BLM doesn’t hold their protests during the National Anthem and the same white folks call bullshit on them. I hear what you are saying but I am just saying minds are made up already and racists will never give a crap about a dead black man no matter what the platform. Racism is a disease just like cancer and unfortunately they both find a way to hang around. To paint the kneelers as unpatriotic is just crap that is all im saying really. I wish i had a cure for racism. I wish i had a cure for cancer. I don’t. All I can do is call bullshit bullshit when I see it. Gives me some sense of satisfaction I guess.

I agree that minds made up to be racists won’t be changed, but they’re not the “target audience.” It’s the average person. More specifically, the average white person or person of privilege who has never personally encountered prejudice at the hands of the police. People who are genuinely clueless and who form their opinions based on what they see on tv or read on the internet from sources they think in they can trust - the talking heads in the media. This is in many ways a divided country, but the one thing that should unite us is our love for our country (however flaws it is) and the freedoms it theoretically entitles to all its citizens. But because the players have chosen to protest in a manner that can be twisted to seem unpatriotic, they’ve immediately lost the chance to win over the “undecided” hearts and minds of millions of Americans. Instead of opening sincere but ignorant minds to injustice, they’ve given an opportunity for shitty powerful men to shut that door closed.

You are 100 percent right - it is bullshit. But simply calling it bullshit isn’t going to change anything. I don’t expect loud prejudiced men like Donald trump to change their minds. But other people could. It’s not smart to alienate them. A critical mass must be reached so that there is a change in public opinion. What they’ve tried so far isn’t working. It’s time to try something else.


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[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I think the league handled this situation about as bad as it possibly could. But i do also blame the players for this mess. They should have quickly recognized that using their platform in this manner was unproductive and not achieving their desired result. They should have switched gears and engaged in a form of protest (or other activism) where the MESSAGE will be the focus instead of the way in which it’s delivered.

I don't blame the players, but, other than that, I agree with everything in this statement. As to blame, there is plenty to go around.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I don't blame the players, but, other than that, I agree with everything in this statement. As to blame, there is plenty to go around.

I’m not blaming them for their initial strategy. It was a brave and bold move. But once it became apparent that the strategy was failing, and they were becoming the discussion point instead of the REAL issue, they should have adapted. Compare it to being a salesman who can’t sell anything: it could be that people just don’t want your product and nothing you can do could change that, but it could also be that you need to try a new approach to get people to listen to your pitch.

If what you’re doing isn’t working, and you aren’t willing to try another approach, you have to look in the mirror and realize you are part of the problem.


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[punch it in]

I just cannot stop thinking about Roseanne when she mocked the national anthem right into the ground. Yet she and Trump are bff’s? The man obviously has selective memory and chooses to remember the players who used the moment to further us as a society, yet to the best of my knowledge has no problem with what she did. Imo it was about as disgraceful as it gets. And make no bones about it, this whole policy stems from his disdain for the kneeling. If he did not go on a twitter tantrum about it we would ALL have continued watching and it would be nothing more than water cooler talk. But the ones who actually stopped watching and twisted the protest into some sort of anti patriotic bullshit are the same ones who follow Roseann on twitter. It is so effing hypocritical. Of course there are some who hate what Roseanne did and what Kaep did but there are millions upon millions who stand behind Roseanne and her Trumpy bigotry and continue to attack the athletes for a peaceful protest. It is mind numbing.


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[Giantone]

SHIT! Well it looks like I missed a fun night,usually I'm the one getting slammed one way or another.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Giantone

SHIT! Well it looks like I missed a fun night,usually I'm the one getting slammed one way or another.

Its only getting slammed if you actually read the hypocritical bullshit.


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[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by punch it in

Its only getting slammed if you actually read the hypocritical bullshit.

Oh punch, you continue to entertain.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Oh punch, you continue to entertain.

You trolling again? Or is this where you tell me that you know ive always been a liberal blah blah blah? You are so hypocritical and so smug.


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[mooby]

Well that went further than I thought it would. Anyways, I find it a little hilarious this is only such a big issue now simply because Trump kept bringing it back up.

Does anybody remember the end of last season when barely any teams/players were doing it? And Kaep/Reid have been blackballed by the league. If Trump had ignored it, it would've gone away, it was barely even getting media coverage towards the end.

Now it's issue A1 again.

Even though I agree with the players, I believe Daseal makes a legitimate argument as to why this is bad for the NFL, which kinda forced their hand. OTOH, I empathize with the players' cause even if it has been hijacked into "they hate America" in laments terms.

For the time & place argument, I agree in that there are other options (why not lead peaceful marches in your hometown, volunteer work, etc.?) but I see why they chose to use the biggest stage, because that has the chance to make a big impact. I agree in that their plan didn't work as it seems the focus has been shifted from racial inequality to "why does the NFL allow them to disrespect America" by non-minorities who can't or won't empathize with their cause.

Shame it went this way, I still believe the media attention would've faded in this era of 15 minute news cycles, but it is what it is. Some players will still kneel this fall, the NFL will fine them, and those fines will probably go to charity. I'm still gonna be watching though.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by mooby

Well that went further than I thought it would. Anyways, I find it a little hilarious this is only such a big issue now simply because Trump kept bringing it back up.

Does anybody remember the end of last season when barely any teams/players were doing it? And Kaep/Reid have been blackballed by the league. If Trump had ignored it, it would've gone away, it was barely even getting media coverage towards the end.

Now it's issue A1 again.

Even though I agree with the players, I believe Daseal makes a legitimate argument as to why this is bad for the NFL, which kinda forced their hand. OTOH, I empathize with the players' cause even if it has been hijacked into "they hate America" in laments terms.

For the time & place argument, I agree in that there are other options (why not lead peaceful marches in your hometown, volunteer work, etc.?) but I see why they chose to use the biggest stage, because that has the chance to make a big impact. I agree in that their plan didn't work as it seems the focus has been shifted from racial inequality to "why does the NFL allow them to disrespect America" by non-minorities who can't or won't empathize with their cause.

Shame it went this way, I still believe the media attention would've faded in this era of 15 minute news cycles, but it is what it is. Some players will still kneel this fall, the NFL will fine them, and those fines will probably go to charity. I'm still gonna be watching though.

Yup, that pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The issue was well on its way to dying out of its own accord but then the NFL wrapped itself in the flag, patriotism and Trump doubled down. Ta - daaaa instantly it's an issue again.

I understand both sides and am not going to demonize either. As I said, from the owners perspective, they just want this issue to go away so it doesn't affect their bottom line. OTOH, and as mooby said, the players believe strongly in their cause and have used the biggest stage to respectfully make their point.

My biggest issue is in this whole debate is the mischaracterization of the matter as a suppression of free speech. It's not. As I said, the players speech is regulated as employees. Just look at the NFL uniform policies; no free speech there.

There were a thousand better ways for the NFL to address this issue in a manner that treated the players with respect but, instead, the NFL choose the "F you. Do as we say" approach. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

[CRedskinsRule]

And yet still who gives a F. I want to see the Skins play, and I would want to see them play if the whole team kneeled or stayed in the locker room or stood at attention on the sideline.

[metalskins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

And yet still who gives a F. I want to see the Skins play, and I would want to see them play if the whole team kneeled or stayed in the locker room or stood at attention on the sideline.

Same with me. I am not opposed to people protesting social injustice at all. And I understand that getting the attention called to such is to do so during a time in which people are going to pay attention (kneeling during the NA.) I don't agree with the practice, but I fully support one's freedom of speech to do just that.

Having said all of that, in years past, the only time the NA was ever televised was during the Super Bowl. Since I didn't grow up going to pro football games, I always assumed it was just something saved for the big game. I never realized they played it at every game, which I guess make sense, because they played the NA at high school football games and college games that I have attended in the past. Still, never paid attention to who was on the field during that time.

[JoeRedskin]

Okay. I am done. Punch, this is clearly something you have strong views on. I can respect that even though I don't agree with every characterization you make or imply.

I apologize for any and all personal attacks and withdraw them without reserve.

At the same time, I suggest to you that I am neither a hypocrite nor a bigot and that the same is true of the Ravens fans I spoke of earlier (one of whom, believe it or not, is a life-long Democrat who voted for Hilary and with whom I consistently and reasonably debate).