Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread

skinsfan0201 · 09-12-2005, 01:23 AM

I'm sorry but you are going to blame Ramsey for the last fumble that he lost when he was linch pinned around the neck? Unfortunately the penately was not called but that certainly can not be blamed on him. That was a serious situation that no person would be able to with stand. Thankfully he was not severely injury (thank goodness). So please, when you are attributing mistakes, reasonably that one should be eliminated from the tally. In addition this was Ramsey's first game and he was bound to be a little nervous. How many chances did Brunell get last year without any production. His arm did not look too wonderful today either, and as far as mistakes, I think that it was rather difficult for Brunell to make many with the conservative offense that the Redskins called (Gibbs called) while he was in there, because of the great production that we were getting from our running backs. Compare that to the relatively fresh defense that Ramsey had to face in the beginning of the game and report back. Ramsey in essence had more success on the Bears, and if he had not sustained that injury would have continued to produce throughout the rest of the game in my opinion.

MTK · 09-12-2005, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfan0201

I'm sorry but you are going to blame Ramsey for the last fumble that he lost when he was linch pinned around the neck? Unfortunately the penately was not called but that certainly can not be blamed on him. That was a serious situation that no person would be able to with stand. Thankfully he was not severely injury (thank goodness). So please, when you are attributing mistakes, reasonably that one should be eliminated from the tally. In addition this was Ramsey's first game and he was bound to be a little nervous. How many chances did Brunell get last year without any production. His arm did not look too wonderful today either, and as far as mistakes, I think that it was rather difficult for Brunell to make many with the conservative offense that the Redskins called (Gibbs called) while he was in there, because of the great production that we were getting from our running backs. Compare that to the relatively fresh defense that Ramsey had to face in the beginning of the game and report back. Ramsey in essence had more success on the Bears, and if he had not sustained that injury would have continued to produce throughout the rest of the game in my opinion.

In the end it doesn't matter if the fumble was his fault or not, in the stat book he fumbled twice and threw an INT.

Look, I'm a Ramsey supporter. I hope he comes back strong and plays well. All I'm saying is it's obvious why Gibbs might not have a ton of confidence in him right now.

JWsleep · 09-12-2005, 01:37 AM

If the offensive PI call does not happen (didn't see a replay, so I have no idea what happened) Ramsey on that drive hit a long pass to Moss and a TD to Cooley. There would be no discussion here. In the 2nd half, Portis cam to life. That makes a QBs job easier. There was not much of a running game with Ramsey in there. Brunnell made some clutch 3rd down throws, but so did PR.

The main knock on PR is how long it takes him to read defenses. Brunnell does a better job there. But PR with time is a better passer. Still, Brunnell hit that great roll-out fake reverse play (best call of the game)--not sure Pat can hit that. So both have their strong points. I'd stick with PR. But there is just no doubt that Gibbs feels more comfortable with Brunnell in there--not sure if it's just because he overpaid for him, but really its because he admires Mark as a person, leader, etc. And he ALWAYS went with vets in the past. We'll see.

Gotta score more than 9 points, no matter who is in there. What is wrong with our red zone offense?!?!?! COME ON! That's got to be fixed.

skinsfan0201 · 09-12-2005, 01:44 AM

Yeah, my point is that if the penalty was called, as it should have been, as ESPN certainly as well as Gibbs said that should have been called then he never would have fumbled. When you are reviewing those stats, you normally would discount that stat because normally that penalty would be called and the referees say that their main job is to protect the quarterback. Knowing that the circumstance of Ramsey being tackled around the throat would be the exception and not the norm you can not fault him for that particular turnover.

12thMan · 09-12-2005, 02:12 AM

As far as the hit and fumble on Ramsey goes, why are we go backing and forth on how it looks on the stat sheet and so forth? The fact is, he got hit very hard, and he fumbled - that's football!! Should it have been a penalty - of course. It was a very physical game and sometimes, unfortunately, these type of 'hits' get overlooked. The thing to really see here is that it seems like Ramsey has a penchant for these types of errors, whether they are of his own doing or not. And that's the thing the concerns Gibbs the most.

Beyond that, I've been a Ramsey supporter for the most part. But in my opinion, the offfense just runs a little smoother when Brunell is in there. It seems like the defense wasn't keying in on Portis very much and freed him up a little more. He just seems to command the offense a little more.

Now I don't won't to defend Brunell here, but I'm sure this is the most he's played with the first team offense this year. Seeing that Ramsey takes about 90% of the snaps in practice. Maybe, just maybe with a full week of game planning and practicing with the first team, things would have looked a little different for 'Scott' Brunell.

The only way I think Gibbs will solve this QB dillima, that he has created, is to trade either Ramsey or Brunell. And it's very unlikely that he will trade the latter of the two.

BleedBurgundy · 09-12-2005, 02:34 AM

I am going to disagree with the notion that the O is smoother with Brunnell under center. Ramsey had just gotten settled into the game, was driving the team, had a touchdown called back because of phantom offensive pass interference and got clotheslined on a play that was ignored by the zebras. Brunell managed not to fuck things up. That's not the definition I want of our STARTING quarterback, that's a back-up, plain and simple.

12thMan · 09-12-2005, 02:37 AM

Well seeing that's basically what his role was when he went into the game, it's good he didn't screw up. And it's not like Brunell is calling the plays anyway. But I still stick by my initial statement.

offiss · 09-12-2005, 02:40 AM

Bottom line Gibbs doesn't like Ramsey, but in part because he looks foolish with the Brunell trade, and the 43 mil we gave for a washed up backup at best and is dying to justify it, Gibbs wont tolerate turnovers? He sure did last year with Brunell for 8 games in which if Brunell just didn't allow the opposing defense to score we would have won 2 more games. Ramsey hangs in the pocket and tries to make play's, Brunell? Seem's to me all Brunell has to do, and all he does is try not to turn the ball over so he can be the apple of Gibbs eye, forget about marching the team downfield. I really would like to know what anyone saw in Brunell sunday to say that's our guy? 70yds passing in 2 1/2 quarters, you have to be kidding me! We had a whopping 3 fieldgoals.

I didn't see all the press confrence but Gibbs and the staff apparently didn't allow Patrick back in because of their concerns for his neck, I really hope Gibbs isn't useing this to get the teachers pet back on the field?

If we are to do anything this season Ramsey has to be the guy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gibbs did a great job down the stretch as well, allowing the bears another opportunity instead of selling out to make a first down or 5 extra yards to put us in fieldgoal range in a 2 point game, IMO Gibbs is still coaching scared, and that fear is permeating both QB's, not just Ramsey.

That Guy · 09-12-2005, 04:47 AM

I think i agree with most, leave ramsey in, he's got more big plays (but is inconsistant)... and be thankful brunell can serve as a good backup.

I'm not really happy with the level of play coming out of the QBs, I think brunell is on the decline and it takes a long time to figure out if a QB is any good (mcnabb and manning lost bunches of games), but I really don't know how much talent we have there right now total. Hopefully campbell learns how to read defenses so he can clear the issue up in the next two years, and hopefully ramsey can limit the turnovers until then.

The scheme is MUCH better this year, I didn't want to break my TV once this game, but I'd really like to leave ramsey in because brunell seems to refuse to try and attack opposing defenses.

e16bball · 09-12-2005, 05:59 AM

Brunell did his job. He's a backup. I can't see why the media, fans, and even Joe Gibbs himself can't be satisfied with that. Ramsey had the first pick that was bad, no doubt, although I have no idea why there were two WRs practically side-by-side...you'll note if you watch the replay that it was actually Patten's defender who catches the overthrow, and I have to think David was supposed to run him off.

In any case, aside from the pick and a few early struggles, Ramsey looked pretty damn good, I thought. He looked very efficient, and even converted some 3rd and longs, which we simply NEVER did last season. He would have had a TD had Cooley not been called for a ridiculous PI, and he quite frankly outplayed Brunell easily. I still don't know why everyone thinks Brunell was a different player out there; I saw the same QB with better arm strength. He is simply not dynamic, and will not LEAD this team to victories. He may keep us from losing a few, but this team is not good enough to go into games TRYING NOT TO LOSE. We have to go into games cutting it loose, playing a bit recklessly at times even, not simply settling for safe 4 yard dumpoffs, and more importantly, not settling for the mindset that goes along with those 4 yarders. As much as I hate to say it, Gibbs needs to take a miniscule page from the Ol' Ball Coach's book and let Patrick go out there and "play a little pitch and catch." He excels in that sort of role, as we saw today, and it would open things up wide for Clinton and Ladell.

That's my two cents, anyway, and two cents is just about what it's worth.

skinsfan0201 · 09-12-2005, 07:49 AM

12th man: RUNS better, as in OFFENSE running better, I don't think I understand your definition of offense running better, given that when Ramsey was in last year the team preceded to go 3-2 the remaining 5 games, whereas Brunell was incapable of getting anything going and is still relying on our running backs to do anything offense. In addition the Redskins are more versatile with Ramsey and the passing game in there. Furthermore, I am a little tired of fans always ready to bench or get rid of a guy that has not been given a true chance. RE: Trent Green, or Rich Gannon.

Where is your faith? If you were really supporting Ramsey "for the most part (ha ha)" you would opportune him a little more than a few series to prove his worth. In addition, he settled down after that few series yesterday. In my opinion, if you don't start Ramsey you will never know the full capability of a guy that we drafted in the first round a little over 3 years ago.

skinsfan0201 · 09-12-2005, 07:53 AM

In addition, doesn't this all seem like a little deja vu to you 12th man .....

skinsfan0201 · 09-12-2005, 07:56 AM

where would the commitment be to a guy that Gibbs promised would be the starter at the beginning of this season and in addition Ramsey did nothing for his job to be dramatically stripped from him in the second week of the season. Furthermore, Brunell did nothing yesterday to earn the starting quarterback role back given his performance yesterday.

backrow · 09-12-2005, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniks

Been reading the posts on this board for a couple months now and enjoy it very much.Ive been a redskins fan for manny many years.I live in CT.

Welcome sniks! You and gusbus! Wow! Two newbies! Just haven't seen both of you in the forum at the same time. Are you sure you aren't the same person? lol

Looking forward to future posts from both of you!

Hog1 · 09-12-2005, 09:39 AM

I have watched Ramsey over the past few years like everyone else. I was really excited when we drafted him. Big arm, tough! Gonna' take us to the next level in the model of Brett Farve! However, even with obvious chances to take the team, and establish himself as the uncontested starter, he has failed thus far. It's not my call to determine who should be the starter, and I want him to make it. The mistakes he makes REPEATEDLY are horrific and always at a catastrophic moment! We might argue, he has been jerked around by 18 different coaches and schemes, confidence shot, Gibbs doesn't like him, etc. Gibbs LOVES the QB who can PROVE he deserves it, like we all do. With all the confusion over the past couple of years that is responsible for Ramseys lack of confidence. so what? It doesn't matter. Just like the addiction commercial of a few years ago said " It's not your fault, but it is your problem". Such is the case for Ramsey. I have been a big fan of his and still am, however, at this time I am not sure he has it. Many QB's have made successful careers of doing what they know how to, and NOT killing their teams by doing the same drive KILLING stupid stuff. That may be the opening for Brunell. I did not see the game, but by the look of things, we have a running game. That with our D and a decent passing game, that sould be enough (Ala' Carolina). This may give us time to unf...k PR or move on with Jason. Just food for thought!!!!!!!!!!1

View Poll Results: Assuming Ramsey is healthy, who's your starter for week 2?
Ramsey	57	76.00%
Brunell	18	24.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

09-12-2005, 01:23 AM	#46
skinsfan0201 Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Falls Church, VA Age: 45 Posts: 234	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread I'm sorry but you are going to blame Ramsey for the last fumble that he lost when he was linch pinned around the neck? Unfortunately the penately was not called but that certainly can not be blamed on him. That was a serious situation that no person would be able to with stand. Thankfully he was not severely injury (thank goodness). So please, when you are attributing mistakes, reasonably that one should be eliminated from the tally. In addition this was Ramsey's first game and he was bound to be a little nervous. How many chances did Brunell get last year without any production. His arm did not look too wonderful today either, and as far as mistakes, I think that it was rather difficult for Brunell to make many with the conservative offense that the Redskins called (Gibbs called) while he was in there, because of the great production that we were getting from our running backs. Compare that to the relatively fresh defense that Ramsey had to face in the beginning of the game and report back. Ramsey in essence had more success on the Bears, and if he had not sustained that injury would have continued to produce throughout the rest of the game in my opinion.

09-12-2005, 01:37 AM	#48
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 55 Posts: 4,719	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread If the offensive PI call does not happen (didn't see a replay, so I have no idea what happened) Ramsey on that drive hit a long pass to Moss and a TD to Cooley. There would be no discussion here. In the 2nd half, Portis cam to life. That makes a QBs job easier. There was not much of a running game with Ramsey in there. Brunnell made some clutch 3rd down throws, but so did PR. The main knock on PR is how long it takes him to read defenses. Brunnell does a better job there. But PR with time is a better passer. Still, Brunnell hit that great roll-out fake reverse play (best call of the game)--not sure Pat can hit that. So both have their strong points. I'd stick with PR. But there is just no doubt that Gibbs feels more comfortable with Brunnell in there--not sure if it's just because he overpaid for him, but really its because he admires Mark as a person, leader, etc. And he ALWAYS went with vets in the past. We'll see. Gotta score more than 9 points, no matter who is in there. What is wrong with our red zone offense?!?!?! COME ON! That's got to be fixed. __________________ Hail from Houston!

09-12-2005, 01:44 AM	#49
skinsfan0201 Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Falls Church, VA Age: 45 Posts: 234	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread Yeah, my point is that if the penalty was called, as it should have been, as ESPN certainly as well as Gibbs said that should have been called then he never would have fumbled. When you are reviewing those stats, you normally would discount that stat because normally that penalty would be called and the referees say that their main job is to protect the quarterback. Knowing that the circumstance of Ramsey being tackled around the throat would be the exception and not the norm you can not fault him for that particular turnover.

09-12-2005, 02:12 AM	#50
12thMan MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: washington, D.C. Posts: 11,460	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread As far as the hit and fumble on Ramsey goes, why are we go backing and forth on how it looks on the stat sheet and so forth? The fact is, he got hit very hard, and he fumbled - that's football!! Should it have been a penalty - of course. It was a very physical game and sometimes, unfortunately, these type of 'hits' get overlooked. The thing to really see here is that it seems like Ramsey has a penchant for these types of errors, whether they are of his own doing or not. And that's the thing the concerns Gibbs the most. Beyond that, I've been a Ramsey supporter for the most part. But in my opinion, the offfense just runs a little smoother when Brunell is in there. It seems like the defense wasn't keying in on Portis very much and freed him up a little more. He just seems to command the offense a little more. Now I don't won't to defend Brunell here, but I'm sure this is the most he's played with the first team offense this year. Seeing that Ramsey takes about 90% of the snaps in practice. Maybe, just maybe with a full week of game planning and practicing with the first team, things would have looked a little different for 'Scott' Brunell. The only way I think Gibbs will solve this QB dillima, that he has created, is to trade either Ramsey or Brunell. And it's very unlikely that he will trade the latter of the two.

09-12-2005, 02:34 AM	#51
BleedBurgundy Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,471	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread I am going to disagree with the notion that the O is smoother with Brunnell under center. Ramsey had just gotten settled into the game, was driving the team, had a touchdown called back because of phantom offensive pass interference and got clotheslined on a play that was ignored by the zebras. Brunell managed not to fuck things up. That's not the definition I want of our STARTING quarterback, that's a back-up, plain and simple.

09-12-2005, 02:37 AM	#52
12thMan MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: washington, D.C. Posts: 11,460	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread Well seeing that's basically what his role was when he went into the game, it's good he didn't screw up. And it's not like Brunell is calling the plays anyway. But I still stick by my initial statement.

09-12-2005, 02:40 AM	#53
offiss Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: sparta, new jersey [ northern jersey ] Age: 60 Posts: 3,097	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread Bottom line Gibbs doesn't like Ramsey, but in part because he looks foolish with the Brunell trade, and the 43 mil we gave for a washed up backup at best and is dying to justify it, Gibbs wont tolerate turnovers? He sure did last year with Brunell for 8 games in which if Brunell just didn't allow the opposing defense to score we would have won 2 more games. Ramsey hangs in the pocket and tries to make play's, Brunell? Seem's to me all Brunell has to do, and all he does is try not to turn the ball over so he can be the apple of Gibbs eye, forget about marching the team downfield. I really would like to know what anyone saw in Brunell sunday to say that's our guy? 70yds passing in 2 1/2 quarters, you have to be kidding me! We had a whopping 3 fieldgoals. I didn't see all the press confrence but Gibbs and the staff apparently didn't allow Patrick back in because of their concerns for his neck, I really hope Gibbs isn't useing this to get the teachers pet back on the field? If we are to do anything this season Ramsey has to be the guy!!!!!!!!!!!! Gibbs did a great job down the stretch as well, allowing the bears another opportunity instead of selling out to make a first down or 5 extra yards to put us in fieldgoal range in a 2 point game, IMO Gibbs is still coaching scared, and that fear is permeating both QB's, not just Ramsey.

09-12-2005, 04:47 AM	#54
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread I think i agree with most, leave ramsey in, he's got more big plays (but is inconsistant)... and be thankful brunell can serve as a good backup. I'm not really happy with the level of play coming out of the QBs, I think brunell is on the decline and it takes a long time to figure out if a QB is any good (mcnabb and manning lost bunches of games), but I really don't know how much talent we have there right now total. Hopefully campbell learns how to read defenses so he can clear the issue up in the next two years, and hopefully ramsey can limit the turnovers until then. The scheme is MUCH better this year, I didn't want to break my TV once this game, but I'd really like to leave ramsey in because brunell seems to refuse to try and attack opposing defenses.

09-12-2005, 05:59 AM	#55
e16bball Special Teams Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 163	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread Brunell did his job. He's a backup. I can't see why the media, fans, and even Joe Gibbs himself can't be satisfied with that. Ramsey had the first pick that was bad, no doubt, although I have no idea why there were two WRs practically side-by-side...you'll note if you watch the replay that it was actually Patten's defender who catches the overthrow, and I have to think David was supposed to run him off. In any case, aside from the pick and a few early struggles, Ramsey looked pretty damn good, I thought. He looked very efficient, and even converted some 3rd and longs, which we simply NEVER did last season. He would have had a TD had Cooley not been called for a ridiculous PI, and he quite frankly outplayed Brunell easily. I still don't know why everyone thinks Brunell was a different player out there; I saw the same QB with better arm strength. He is simply not dynamic, and will not LEAD this team to victories. He may keep us from losing a few, but this team is not good enough to go into games TRYING NOT TO LOSE. We have to go into games cutting it loose, playing a bit recklessly at times even, not simply settling for safe 4 yard dumpoffs, and more importantly, not settling for the mindset that goes along with those 4 yarders. As much as I hate to say it, Gibbs needs to take a miniscule page from the Ol' Ball Coach's book and let Patrick go out there and "play a little pitch and catch." He excels in that sort of role, as we saw today, and it would open things up wide for Clinton and Ladell. That's my two cents, anyway, and two cents is just about what it's worth.

09-12-2005, 07:49 AM	#56
skinsfan0201 Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Falls Church, VA Age: 45 Posts: 234	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread 12th man: RUNS better, as in OFFENSE running better, I don't think I understand your definition of offense running better, given that when Ramsey was in last year the team preceded to go 3-2 the remaining 5 games, whereas Brunell was incapable of getting anything going and is still relying on our running backs to do anything offense. In addition the Redskins are more versatile with Ramsey and the passing game in there. Furthermore, I am a little tired of fans always ready to bench or get rid of a guy that has not been given a true chance. RE: Trent Green, or Rich Gannon. Where is your faith? If you were really supporting Ramsey "for the most part (ha ha)" you would opportune him a little more than a few series to prove his worth. In addition, he settled down after that few series yesterday. In my opinion, if you don't start Ramsey you will never know the full capability of a guy that we drafted in the first round a little over 3 years ago.

09-12-2005, 07:53 AM	#57
skinsfan0201 Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Falls Church, VA Age: 45 Posts: 234	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread In addition, doesn't this all seem like a little deja vu to you 12th man .....

09-12-2005, 07:56 AM	#58
skinsfan0201 Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Falls Church, VA Age: 45 Posts: 234	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread where would the commitment be to a guy that Gibbs promised would be the starter at the beginning of this season and in addition Ramsey did nothing for his job to be dramatically stripped from him in the second week of the season. Furthermore, Brunell did nothing yesterday to earn the starting quarterback role back given his performance yesterday.

09-12-2005, 09:39 AM	#60
Hog1 Quietly Dominating the East Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Naples, Florida Posts: 10,675	Re: Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread I have watched Ramsey over the past few years like everyone else. I was really excited when we drafted him. Big arm, tough! Gonna' take us to the next level in the model of Brett Farve! However, even with obvious chances to take the team, and establish himself as the uncontested starter, he has failed thus far. It's not my call to determine who should be the starter, and I want him to make it. The mistakes he makes REPEATEDLY are horrific and always at a catastrophic moment! We might argue, he has been jerked around by 18 different coaches and schemes, confidence shot, Gibbs doesn't like him, etc. Gibbs LOVES the QB who can PROVE he deserves it, like we all do. With all the confusion over the past couple of years that is responsible for Ramseys lack of confidence. so what? It doesn't matter. Just like the addiction commercial of a few years ago said " It's not your fault, but it is your problem". Such is the case for Ramsey. I have been a big fan of his and still am, however, at this time I am not sure he has it. Many QB's have made successful careers of doing what they know how to, and NOT killing their teams by doing the same drive KILLING stupid stuff. That may be the opening for Brunell. I did not see the game, but by the look of things, we have a running game. That with our D and a decent passing game, that sould be enough (Ala' Carolina). This may give us time to unf...k PR or move on with Jason. Just food for thought!!!!!!!!!!1

Official Bench Ramsey / Start Brunell Thread

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