Looks like Skins are $10 mil over cap next year, who goes?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Jansen has had a stellar year, with two broken thumbs. In point, 1 penalty all year long, a false start in week 5. Samuels not quite as good, but solid.

wow, 1 penalty, i guess giving up sacks and letting DEs rip by you doesn't matter if you only have one penalty

[CrazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Didn't Samuels just restructure his contract last offseason? I'm not the biggest CS fan, but I would be surprised if he left

Samuels just signed a new deal prior to 2005. We paid a lot, but since we backed ourselves into a corner with CS, we really had no choice. His cap numbers are big and I don't see any restructuring for 2006.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by That Guy

wow, 1 penalty, i guess giving up sacks and letting DEs rip by you doesn't matter if you only have one penalty

I would agree, Jansen's year has been less than stellar. Granted at times he has been dominant, but during key times in the game he as well as Samuels have given up monstrous sacks.

Additionally, Derrick Dockery has only had a couple of penalties the entire year, if that many, so we can't judge performance on penalties alone.

[CrazyCanuck]

As for Arrington, his 2006 salary is only $545K so not exactly a great restructure candidate. If I had to guess, I'd say we let Lavar go this offseason, eat his $12M deadcap hit and get him off the books for the future.

[CrazyCanuck]

As for other potential 2006 moves I see:

Cuts/Trades:
Ramsey
Noble
Hall
Harris
Bowen
Patten
Raymer
Thrash

Restructures:
Brunell
Jansen
Thomas

(ie same guys who restructured last year)

[12thMan]

Hey mods, can we start a poll.

Will LaVar stay or go in '06.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

New England. Do we even have to go to this one. Everyone drafted, won a superbowl, got Corey dillon, won another two. (Ideal organization, draft players late that have an impact, spend WISELY, build a team of continuity and famaliarity)

Cincy, all key players are draft picks, Palmer, Johnson, TJ, Henry, Rudy. He picked up a few key players on D, but mostly they are all young and drafted, result, 9-3, going to playoffs.

Regarding this years draft. I think we should have taken a DE with the first pick, and got a quality CB in the 2nd.

Your wrong on some of these things... New england won ONE bowl after dillon, and cincy has 18, EIGHTEEN new non-drafted players over the last two years... there are about 8 people on that team that were there in 2002, so i don't know where you're getting your facts from, but they're obviously wrong. Everyone in NE is NOT drafted, TONS were FA pickups (look at all the DBs they've used this year, guess what? most weren't drafted)

and once again, WE DID NOT HAVE A 2nd ROUND PICK. we could not have picked up a DE and then a CB, we'd have to have picked up one as a FA... which kinda kills your arguement.

[12thMan]

A lot of people are critical of us not taking a DE in the draft. But my question is who should we have taken over Rogers? Especially a rookie?

I don't get it.

[#56fanatic]

When I say everyone I dont mean every freakin person on the roster. I am referring to the core, key players teams have. If you think I meant every person on the roster then you are wrong. or maybe I should have spelled it out better. ALL THE KEY PERSONEL ON MOST OF THE TEAMS COMPETING FOR PLAYOFFS ARE DRAFTED, with a few of the players being that key pickup to put them over the top. Of the eighteen new players, how many of them are contributing players, and how many are roster spots? I would imagine most of them are roster spots vs. contributing players. People on this site need to learn how to address people in a manner that is not attacking. I have tried not to do that, but continually get bashed by people who think opinions are facts. Some of the stuff I make reference to are facts, and some are opinions. You can not debate the fact that most of the teams competing for playoff spots draft their key players, with a few FA pickups. Exception may be dallas with Bledsoe,Glenn,and ME,ME,ME on the offense. You people need to stop drinking the Redskin Cool-aid and look at the big picture. I hope Joe is sending us in the right direction. This season is an example of building a TEAM atmosphere. But like I have said before, if Danny , Vinny, and pepper rogers keep making decisions and dont hire a GM with some freakin knowledge we will continue to be .500 every year. People buy into their spin every year, "this year is going to be the year" look we got Marty, look we got Spurrier, look we brought back Joe the great!! Its the same thing no matter who is coaching. When do we start winning, next year right?!!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

When I say everyone I dont mean every freakin person on the roster. I am referring to the core, key players teams have. If you think I meant every person on the roster then you are wrong. or maybe I should have spelled it out better. ALL THE KEY PERSONEL ON MOST OF THE TEAMS COMPETING FOR PLAYOFFS ARE DRAFTED, with a few of the players being that key pickup to put them over the top. Of the eighteen new players, how many of them are contributing players, and how many are roster spots? I would imagine most of them are roster spots vs. contributing players. People on this site need to learn how to address people in a manner that is not attacking. I have tried not to do that, but continually get bashed by people who think opinions are facts. Some of the stuff I make reference to are facts, and some are opinions. You can not debate the fact that most of the teams competing for playoff spots draft their key players, with a few FA pickups. Exception may be dallas with Bledsoe,Glenn,and ME,ME,ME on the offense. You people need to stop drinking the Redskin Cool-aid and look at the big picture. I hope Joe is sending us in the right direction. This season is an example of building a TEAM atmosphere. But like I have said before, if Danny , Vinny, and pepper rogers keep making decisions and dont hire a GM with some freakin knowledge we will continue to be .500 every year. People buy into their spin every year, "this year is going to be the year" look we got Marty, look we got Spurrier, look we brought back Joe the great!! Its the same thing no matter who is coaching. When do we start winning, next year right?!!

There are top teams that have core players they didn't draft, to name a few:

Seahawks: QB-Hasselbeck, WR-Jurevicius, DE-Wistrom, DT-Darby, DB-Dyson, DB-Herndon, OL-Fisher, Ol-Gray

Panthers: QB-Delhomme, RB-Davis, WR-Gardner (hahaha, damn I'm funny-Rod "core player" Gardner), DT-Buckner, DB-Lucas, DB-McCree

Broncos-QB-Plummer, DB-Ferguson, DB-Bailey, All those former Browns rejects on the D-Line, TE-Alexander

So while a good draft is part of building a good team. It's not the only way to skin a cat as they say

[offiss]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

A lot of people are critical of us not taking a DE in the draft. But my question is who should we have taken over Rogers? Especially a rookie?

I don't get it.

And thats the problem you can't alway's draft for need, sometimes you have to draft the best available player if theres a big disparity between need and talent.

Rogers was a good pick, although I was starting to worry a bit about him a few games ago he seems to have really started to pick up his game and show more speed on the field, he was probably the victom of trying to understand the defense and the NFL and was a little slow in reacting because he was thinking to much hopefully he will just continue to progress.

Personally I wanted to trade down and bolster other areas of our team, but you can't cry about Rogers I think he will turn out to be a good one, the only alternative was to draft Merriman, reminds me a lot of John Abraham.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

You dont get what I am saying.

Other than the apparent disavowal of your earlier statement that "Teams with constant roster turn over DO NOT win", I get what you're saying. I just disagree with your conclusions and think the facts you use to back them up are outdated, selective in nature, contradictory and disengenous. Further, you simply ignored my questions concerning the practical effects of the disasters you proclaim.

As to the various teams and their keys to winning - Which is it:

1. Teams with constant roster turnover DON'T win.

or

2. Teams that cut ties with players when appropriate i.e. due to age or their cost in relation to the team's salary structure/cap (applicable to each and every team you mentioned), yearly aquire necessary players through FA, regardless of price (i.e. Kearse, TO, Corey Simon), carefully trade draft choices for talent (Dillon), and draft well DO win.

The statements are mutually exclusive b/c the second assumes constant roster turnover. If you are asserting that, actually constant turnover is not the key issue but rather the careful aquisition and retention of talent is, I would agree AND I would suggest that Gibbs' two off-seasons appear to be working towards that goal.

Further, your analysis simply ignores that NE started its run the season after it made a ton of low end FA aquistions (for which it was roundly lambasted) and that each of these teams has lost "core" players along the way (Two seasons ago NE cuts it locker room leader safety but recovered nicely). As to drafting well, the players you mention are heavy in the 1st - 3rd round category. I would suggest that the Skin's have done OK in that department (as evidenced by your later references to Jansen, Samuels, and Arrington). Your analysis of the roster moves is heavy on the "key players drafted" analysis - Let see: Arrington, Marshall, Taylor, Rodgers, Jansen, Samuels, Dockery, Cartwright, Betts, Cooley - sounds like a pretty good list of "key players drafted".

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Not to overpay players : Brunell 35 yr old QB, 43 million + 3rd rounder(is that not too much?)

Didn't I basically agree that the price seemed to high? As I said, I am willing to give Gibbs a pass on this one as it was his first foray into the new NFL. Good move on your part - Way to hammer home a conceded point.

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

30 yr old CB in springs, 10 million signing bonus(is that not too much?)

HOLY CRAP - You cannot be serious. At the time, a slightly overmarket price to lock down a starting CB. A bit of a gamble but one that has paid off in spades. We COULD NOT NOW get a CB of Springs quality at the price he was asking then, regardless of age. If Springs hit the open market, any doubt he could get a deal significantly BETTER than the one Smoot got???

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Trading of a 2nd pick + Bailey for Portis, too much given up!.

Beat that dead horse. Obviously, you would have slyly negotiated the Broncos into at least a straight up deal and probably pried the 2nd rounder from them. If the deal doesn't go through, we lose Champ to FA and get nothing, Denver keeps Portis, we draft Tatum Bell. Unless you were there, this is just your opinion and not one that is the clear majority (Bronco's fans were complaining that THEY got the short end of the stick). You are entitled to your opinion, but b/c you believe don't make it a fact.

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Walt Harris, making almost 3 million a year, too much.

Walt Harris was a flyer picked up in case Smoot departed. He was a former starter who signed a reasonable K that pays 1.5 this year and 2.7 next. He won't be collecting the 2.7 next year. For a starting CB, that's a damn fine bargain. For a back-up, it certainly is not exhorbitant. You want to bitch about his performance, fine. Who would you have picked up in his place? Who would you have started earlier this year in place of him? In lieu of your preference for a DE in the draft, this was a damn fine pick up - or does your well thought out plan include drafting Ware, starting him at the DE spot and starting Ade Jimoh opposite Springs? Yes - that would have worked. Absolutely.

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

I am not saying these players are not playing well and that I dont want them on the team. Just stating we overpaid them.

So, in order to aquire players that you generally approve of, we MAY HAVE overpaid them in order to solidify our depth and get players that fit the team mold envisioned by Gibbs. IF we overpaid them, HOW HAS THE TEAM BEEN HARMED?? WHO HAVE WE missed out on? HOW SHOULD we have filled the voids left by the PRE-GIBBS era??

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Also, gave up a 3rd and a 1st for a QB # 3 on the depth chart. when you think about it between Ramsey, Brunell, Campbell we have 4 picks, 3 number 1's and a number 3 tied up in those players, not to mention the money we gave to Brunell.
...

If we about building for the future, then why do we trade picks away for a 35 year old QB to be our starter. Why do you yank your started 1 quarter into the season. Why do you waiste another 1st round pick on another QB. Future building is not in the organization.

So the first thing Gibbs does is lock up an experienced veteran who has shown himself to be a solid starter. Meanwhile, he retains a talented young QB who may yet prove himself to be a solid starter or a valuable back-up/trade bait. After experienciing a year in which the QB play was simply not very good, while still believing he has the right guy for the job, Gibbs moves to aquire a young QB with good talent and put him in a situation where he can sit and learn for at least one, possibly two years a' la Carson Palmer. What an absurd way to build for the future at THE most important position on the field.

The consistency of your various positions is simply astounding.

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Regarding this years draft. I think we should have taken a DE with the first pick, and got a quality CB in the 2nd. I am not going to complain about Rogers, I think he will be quality. Though Spears and Ware will now be eating us alive twice a year with the cowboys.

Tell you what, buy a franchise and you can draft all the DE's you like. But tell me, assuming we don't overbid for Smoot and don't sign Harris - who is your other starting CB? A 2nd round rookie? Again, buy a franchise and you can take that gamble - maybe you get lucky, maybe you don't.

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

I give Marvin and Del Rio credit and the owner credit for knowing it was going to be a few years of rebuilding with these young guys, then we will start winning when they grow and learn together. We have not done that since Danny bought the team.

But as we seem to be doing these last two years under Gibbs? Jesus man, give it a break - we are in year 2 of Gibbs. You want slow careful building for the future but you want it, and the results it brings, NOW!!!

If a slow careful building process is what you want, then TELL ME how this last offseason failed to provide that: Compared to last year - we got the same OL (3 of whom were draft picks), the same TE's (oh wait, he was a draft pick to!), the same first and 2nd string QB (didn't we draft one of those guys??), the same back-up running backs (by gosh, those guys are our draft picks also!) and we bring back 9 of 11 starters on D (of which 4 were our draft picks).

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

If we had done that from the get go with Lavar, Samuels, Jansen, we could have won something by now instead of spending money on guys that arenot here now and guys that probably wont be here in a year or two.

Okay - after naming several excellent roster moves by the Skins you make an amorphous reference to "spending money on guys that arenot here now and guys that probably wont be here in a year or two". SINCE GIBBS TOOK OVER AND, OTHER THAN BRUNELL, TELL ME: WHO, specifically, are you referring to; WHO, specifically, we lost out on b/c of the expenditure and WHO, specifically, we should have gotten in their place?

Harris? Maybe - but given the position he plays and the team make-up, probably not. Patten? Again, maybe, but who do we sign in his place? SPRINGS?? WASHINGTON?? GRIFFIN??

As I said earlier, you are entitled to your opinion. IF that opinion, as it appears to be, is that the Skins are making disastrous front office moves then I disagree. Could they improve? Well, who can't?

BUT in terms of aquiring and retaining talent, it is just too damn early to be blasting the Gibbs era Skins. Especially since the evidence appears to be that the team is going to make solid efforts to retain home-grown talent and stop paying through the nose for big-name FA aquisitions a' la Kearse or Musin Muhammed.

[Big C]

think that might be the longest post in warpath history

[SmootSmack]

Worth reading though...except Marshall I'm pretty sure was a free agent. Still, good post

[onsidekick]

umm...that was pretty cool. nice work