Campbell's numbers dont lie

[dmvskinzfan08]

Originally Posted by dgack

The problem that I have with your analysis, SC, and I suspect many others are in the same boat here, is that you seem to think that Jason is an average or slightly above average QB, and that we merely need to 'address this in the offseason' as if this will resolve many of the team's issues.

And you're not the only one, plenty of people here are clamoring for Zorn and Campbell to be tossed overboard so we can begin our oh-so-beloved quest for the One True Player to deliver us from the arms of mediocrity. Oh, how we love the offseason courtships and dreams of free-spending our way to a championship.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Jason has "lost" the team? Don't you think every one of those guys is pulling for him and wants to see him succeed? After the way Snyder publicly humiliated the guy -- do you honestly think that it's going to be as simple as just replacing one cog in a machine with another, with no ramifications to the rest of the team? I sure don't. The quotes I read the clips I see of interviews tell me that these guys are behind Jason Campbell. All of them may not be with Zorn right now, but I don't see a lot of people preparing to throw JC under the bus. And they sure as hell aren't going to get excited about learning the quirks and habits and proficiencies and deficiencies of a new QB.

So ejecting Campbell and starting over WILL have consequences. We will regress. AGAIN. No new QB coming in here, short of an established veteran winner, is going to command the huddle and assert leadership over the team in their first season, either. You see Colt McCoy or Sam Bradford walking in here and saying "this is my team"? I don't think so.

No, I think what many of us are saying is that we should be capable of fielding a team that does not REQUIRE a quarterback to be a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning to compete at elite levels. Mark Rypien put up some good numbers for a few years, but was he an elite QB or a better-than-average QB who was a good fit in the system?

Kyle Orton is 4-0 this season. Is he elite? Or is he just being asked to be a competent QB most of the game and occasionally make some big plays?

Constantly chasing the holy grail QB is a waste of time. I don't have time to run the numbers, but I'm curious how often you really see a young highly touted QB prospect come in and turn around a team that is mired in mediocrity.

We need to fix a lot of other crap about this organization before we even think about looking for that miracle working QB.

Good point. But I will add to it. Because i know some will ignore the 3 words I bolded.

They will say Flacco, Matt Ryan or even pull Sanchez out their ---.

With all of these QBs they have these two important things that are a rookie QBs dream. A good running game and also a very stout if not great defense.

-Ryan has Turner and alot of other skilled players.
-Flacco has 3 formidable RBs and a great defense
-Sanchez has a good defense that came from the bmore defense and two good RBs on who is a a Sproles type player who excels running and catching the ball.

We dont have that. Our defense is becoming better but is not on the level of bmore or the jets and our only running back threat is nicked up and our o-line is not playing very well. Espeically when it comes to the run game.

Flacco might turn out to be the best of three. On NFL Network they were actually comparing Ryan to Brady when they played the other game. I was like WTF?

I think Ryan will regress this year. We all saw what happened when Sanchez had to put a team on his back against the Saints.

So there is no holy grail like my man said above. So we need to just hope JC manages the game and dont expect him to become Joe Montana overnight.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

So there is no holy grail like my man said above. So we need to jsut hope JC manages the game and dont expect him to become Joe Montana overnight.

Agreed there is no "holy grail" QB out there. However JC's play over the last two games (in snaps that the opposing D wasn't playing basically a prevent) isn't acceptable of a "game manager" or average QB. As I mentioned before he single-handedly could've been the cause of 8 turnovers in 2 games. As it is he caused 5.

[dmvskinzfan08]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Agreed there is no "holy grail" QB out there. However JC's play over the last two games (in snaps that the opposing D wasn't playing basically a prevent) isn't acceptable of a "game manager" or average QB. As I mentioned before he single-handedly could've been the cause of 8 turnovers in 2 games. As it is he caused 5.

I think the fumbles are totally unacceptable. But I have a question. I might have missed something. Were the Bucs playing prevent in the 3rd quarter?

The other games when they said he scored during garbage time this applies. But as far as the last game (Buc) this doesn't really apply.

Do you mean the games against the Rams and Lions?

[SkinDogg]

Jason, tough game yesterday, and I know you're not long for this town. But wherever you go, and however it ends up, be safe in this game. I wish you nothing but the very best.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

I think the fumbles are totally unacceptable. But I have a question. I might have missed something. Were the Bucs playing prevent in the 3rd quarter?

The other games when they said he scored during garbage time this applies. But as far as the last game (Buc) this doesn't really apply.

Do you mean the games against the Rams and Lions?

I'm just speaking of the last two games. No Bucs prevent from that I saw. The late 4th qtr drive against the Lions (where JC improved his QB rating drastically for the game), they were in a soft Cover 4 the whole drive.

Outside of the two TD throws Sunday (which were very good and on consecutive plays), even on the TD drive JC didn't look good at all. On the two TD throws we don't know if it was a case of two great reads and plays by JC or if Zorn/Smith saw something in the D and dialed up great playcalls where JC just had to set and deliver, not read. A game manager or average QB cannot account for 3 TDs and 5 turnovers (again, lucky it wasn't 8) in two games.

EDIT: Also, I don't want anything I'm saying to be mistaken. I like JC, he's a quality young man and a good lead-by-example guy. I want him to be successful here, if he's not, based on what's likely available this off-season we're in trouble at the QB position.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

The Cowboys haven't lost to Detroit, why are you saying this? And I must say, you do give up easily.

It was when we lost to, let me remind you again, the WINLESS Detroit Lions, that I said that we are not going anywhere this season. You really think that the light at the end of the tunnel will get brighter for us, when the second half of our season is going to be a lot tougher than the first half of our season. I want you, Ruhskins, to tell me how you think this team will finish this year. I say 7-9. Middle of the pack. You and a few other people on this thread think that we're going to the super bowl or something, like you think a miracle will happen. I hope that the skins prove me wrong and go to the playoffs, thats when I dont mind being proven wrong. But I know and I'm still gonna say, that we will not make the playoffs. So again Ruhskins and everyone else bashing me on this particular thread, to respond and tell me right now, how you think we the redskins will finish this year, whats going to be their final record.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

In the thread referenced I actually did not compare him to Leftwich. I was responding to a comment about Leftwich and said that he is someone else who actually had (to that point) put up good statistical numbers but was not a very good quarterback and lacked a refined sense of timing and anticipation. If you read what I actually wrote it is quite clear and does not differ in tone from your characterization above.

Also, I am not sure how you can characterize Garrard as a "runner" or say that his "running" makes a comparison between he and Campbell inaccurate. In 2008 Garrard had the most rushing yards he has ever had as a professional (322). Campbell had 258. Garrard scrambles around because he does not get a clear picture at the snap or play with great timing. That is exactly the same reason that Campbell was moving so much in the pocket yesterday.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not the kind of guy who will change my opinion of a player in the middle of a season. I'll re-evaluate Campbell given his whole body of work at the end of the season, and if I am in agreement that he's hit a developmental wall thanks to maxing out the extent at which he can process information and speed up his reads, then he'll always just be mediocre. That will be obvious at the end of the year if it's true. You'll hear it here first.

Now, when you brought up a Garrard comparison in the other thread, that struck me as interesting. Because you alluded to the flaws that Jason shared with David Garrard. But you never really built the anti-Garrard case. What if a stats guy like me watches Garrard on Sunday against the Titans and says, "this is a well above average quarterback with mobility." And then your comparison kind of falls apart.

So while I'm kinda intrigued by your angle, I wish you would have built your case better so I have something to respond to/watch for.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

It was when we lost to, let me remind you again, the WINLESS Detroit Lions, that I said that we are not going anywhere this season. You really think that the light at the end of the tunnel will get brighter for us, when the second half of our season is going to be a lot tougher than the first half of our season. I want you, Ruhskins, to tell me how you think this team will finish this year. I say 7-9. Middle of the pack. You and a few other people on this thread think that we're going to the super bowl or something, like you think a miracle will happen. I hope that the skins prove me wrong and go to the playoffs, thats when I dont mind being proven wrong. But I know and I'm still gonna say, that we will not make the playoffs. So again Ruhskins and everyone else bashing me on this particular thread, to respond and tell me right now, how you think we the redskins will finish this year, whats going to be their final record.

Since I was among the first to call you out on your thin fandom, I'll answer. At the beginning of the year, I thought they were a 10 win team. At this point, I believe they are a 6 win team based on what I've seen. Now that being said, every Redskins game I am going to be parked in my seat rooting them to win each and every time they step onto the field. I will agonize their losses and celebrate their wins just like any other time. Regardless of my expectations, I would NEVER root against my teams and players in the hopes of a "better draft pick", especially this early.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

It was when we lost to, let me remind you again, the WINLESS Detroit Lions, that I said that we are not going anywhere this season. You really think that the light at the end of the tunnel will get brighter for us, when the second half of our season is going to be a lot tougher than the first half of our season. I want you, Ruhskins, to tell me how you think this team will finish this year. I say 7-9. Middle of the pack. You and a few other people on this thread think that we're going to the super bowl or something, like you think a miracle will happen. I hope that the skins prove me wrong and go to the playoffs, thats when I dont mind being proven wrong. But I know and I'm still gonna say, that we will not make the playoffs. So again Ruhskins and everyone else bashing me on this particular thread, to respond and tell me right now, how you think we the redskins will finish this year, whats going to be their final record.

I haven't been bashing you but I think you need to be straigtened out a little on your "thinking". How I or anyone else "thinks" we're going to finish has little to do with how we WILL finish. I think we've all been fooled before. I still think we could turn this thing around play our best ball when it counts the most. I would rather finish strong than start out strong (See last year). You NEVER pull against your team to win....certainly not this early.

[CultBrennan59]

I respect those last two comments

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

It was when we lost to, let me remind you again, the WINLESS Detroit Lions, that I said that we are not going anywhere this season. You really think that the light at the end of the tunnel will get brighter for us, when the second half of our season is going to be a lot tougher than the first half of our season. I want you, Ruhskins, to tell me how you think this team will finish this year. I say 7-9. Middle of the pack. You and a few other people on this thread think that we're going to the super bowl or something, like you think a miracle will happen. I hope that the skins prove me wrong and go to the playoffs, thats when I dont mind being proven wrong. But I know and I'm still gonna say, that we will not make the playoffs. So again Ruhskins and everyone else bashing me on this particular thread, to respond and tell me right now, how you think we the redskins will finish this year, whats going to be their final record.

Unlike you I don't say dumb things such as "I want my team to suck this year so we can draft a QB and replace the current QB who I hate so much, I am willing to root against my own team." And never have I said (seriously) that we are going to the superbowl or that some miracle will happen. Does the team have issues? Yes. Is it a stretch to say that we're going to the playoffs? Of course. But we've only gone a quarter of the season.

If we go run of the mill 7-9 or less, this team needs to be blown up and start from scratch. And not just with the QB, since in case you haven't notice, we have issues with the o-line as well, an aging RB, and some past questionable FO decisions. But, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. So far, we're 2-2 with a lot of football to play. Unlike you, I'm not giving up on the team.

If you continue to say that you'll root against your own team, well be prepared to be bashed by a lot of people here.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Anyone who has read my posts knows I've supported JC in a big way throughout last year and prior to the Lions game. However the mistakes he's made in the last two games have me very concerned. I've still got to look at the 4th quarter of the game....but so far it appears JC is either regressing, or after a couple of games of film teams have figured out how to mess up JC and he's struggling.

I'll be more concerned if the mistakes continue. Right now I'm just pleased to see that he's being trusted to go out and make mistakes. For too long it seems like he wasn't trusted to do anything.

I don't see this as an OL issue, for the most part he has time. I'm not buying the "WRs completely suck" argument either. I do see some playcalling issues in the run game (been saying that for 4 weeks), and there also may be some playcalling issues in the pass-game this week (still looking at that, damn I wish I had a full field view).

I'm not sure he has quite enough time. But then again, if I recall correctly, Roethlisberger didn't have much time many times last year but still made things happen

IMO right now the best thing to do is nothing. We must find out if JC can improve and stabilize, or if he's not going to make it. If we come into the Bye week and JC is still having the same issues he's had over the last two weeks with no improvement, we need to make a decision based on our record. If we still have a realistic shot at the playoffs (5-2 or 4-3) then Collins should go in. If we're out of it (2-5 or 3-4) based on the remaining 9 games, which are no joke, then we need to take a look at Woodson and start planning for life after JC.

Wow, could you imagine if Woodson is the answer? I lean toward Campbell not being here in 2010. In fact, I wouldn't be all that stunned if neither Campbell nor Rogers are here, which would make the 2005 draft pretty dreadful. Here comes the Shanahan-Leinart era, or the Cowher-Skelton era, or the Holmgren-Snead era, or the Gruden-Clausen/Robinson era...

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'll be more concerned if the mistakes continue. Right now I'm just pleased to see that he's being trusted to go out and make mistakes. For too long it seems like he wasn't trusted to do anything.

I'm almost done with the review and it ain't pretty for JC. I'm also looking (as best I can without full field film, you're welcome at any point to step up and sneak some out for me LOL) at the routes that are being called, just to see if this is also a Zorn issue. At first look it appears this is mostly a JC issue.

P.S. Clausen needs to stay at ND for 2010 and get a BCS championship with a healthy M. Floyd it's possible.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I'm almost done with the review and it ain't pretty for JC. I'm also looking (as best I can without full field film, you're welcome at any point to step up and sneak some out for me LOL) at the routes that are being called, just to see if this is also a Zorn issue. At first look it appears this is mostly a JC issue.

P.S. Clausen needs to stay at ND for 2010 and get a BCS championship with a healthy M. Floyd it's possible.

We should have never cut Chase

Sneak out film for you? You must be crazy

[dmvskinzfan08]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I'm almost done with the review and it ain't pretty for JC. I'm also looking (as best I can without full field film, you're welcome at any point to step up and sneak some out for me LOL) at the routes that are being called, just to see if this is also a Zorn issue. At first look it appears this is mostly a JC issue.

P.S. Clausen needs to stay at ND for 2010 and get a BCS championship with a healthy M. Floyd it's possible.

Guess on the strength of this review that we should start looking for another QB huh?

I think Bradford would have been the best bet before he got hurt. Clausen is good but I think he should stay another year. Woud like to see more big game action from him.