Paintrain's all encompassing 'discuss all things offseason' thread (Version 2.0)

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

Good point SS

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many people even think of Native Americans when you say "Redskins" anyway? That's a word associated with the football team in the minds of most. Nobody thinks about the Natives, or maybe I should cares...which I guess is what's really offensive

I think of the team and potatoes. Mmmmm red skin potatoes.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many people even think of Native Americans when you say "Redskins" anyway? That's a word associated with the football team in the minds of most. Nobody thinks about the Natives, or maybe I should cares...which I guess is what's really offensive

I think if the team had a benign logo like the scripted R or something that didn't have Native imagery it would be a non issue but the name plus the logo plus the PC times we live in multiplied by the media hype equals a firestorm.

It's just a matter of time before they relent and change it. The 'name changers' will eventually get smart and realize that the way to the change is through the team and league sponsors, not appealing to the team or league itself. The Gov't involvement is a joke, they have no jurisdiction or influence on it, they're just pandering as politicians often do. I've said before, the only way the Gov't can influence a change is if the FCC deems 'Redskins' a racial slur and threatens to fine any network that uses it.

[scowan]

Originally Posted by punch it in

Well to play devils advocate the white man from Kentucky hasnt exactly endured the hardships that the native american has. Which is why you are not necessarily offended imo.
That being said it boils down to are native americans offended by the name. According to studies - they are not.

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

I don't want to turn this into a social/history discussion. But Native Americans are one of many groups that have been disadvantaged over several generations and that's something that doesn't turn around overnight.

Here's a non minority comparison. Look at the southern US states that were heavily affected by the Civil War. Some of the poorest states in the country are in the South, which was heavily affected by the loss of people and economic resources during the war. Some of them bounced back, but most have not, yet the Civil War ended almost 150 years ago. Sure there has been other things affecting these states, but 5 years of warfare, loss of life, and breakdown of economic structure has a long term effect.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

Can opened, lol. I'll just share one example of the inequities that exist today based on things that happened generations ago.

I had a conversation a couple years back with a older (mid 60's) white gentleman who was telling me about the wind farms that he has on some family property he owns in Kansas that was passed down from multiple generations dating back to the early 1800's. On this land the government pays him nearly $15k monthly not to grow crops but to allow them to use the land for 'experimental energy sources'. He's banked millions over the years and his family is set for generations to come purely based on this subsidy. Great for him, I'm not mad at him!

Here's the thing, my ancestors were legally not allowed to own property in Kansas during that time period so regardless of my hard work, work ethic, etc. I would never have that same opportunity because of the history of this country. He didn't do anything but win the sperm lottery but he and his offspring are set for life.

Don't take this as a 'poor me' tale, I've done well for myself through my efforts and it turns my stomach to see anyone, regardless of what they look like, playing the blame game with one hand and extending the other hand for something other than a hand UP. I only share this because I've heard the 'let it go, it was so long ago, it doesn't matter' BS too many times and some people don't have the perspective to look at how laws and policies that existed well before their time have an institutional and systemic impact on today's society.

Lesson over, now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

Hey, sounds like Keenan Robinson has had a few good weeks!

[Ruhskins]

New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton says safety Jairus Byrd's back surgery won't keep him out of training camp - ESPN

Maybe it is a good thing that our crappy [/sarcasm] FO didn't go after him. They say it is not a big deal, but it is a back issue. Not good IMO.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement.

lol theres a lot to disagree with here.

[scowan]

I appreciate all of you that responded to my comments. Like I said its not a perfect world and not everyone has the same opportunities, It just seems like some can't or won't rise above their situations.

On a related sports note, how would like to be Donald Sterling........ you offend a group of people, your fellow owners, and the whole world, and then you sell your team for $2 billion. LMAO!!!

Maybe Dan Snyder should stick to his guns until the rest of the league gets pissed enough at him that they force him to sell the Redskins. CHA-CHING!!!

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I think if the team had a benign logo like the scripted R or something that didn't have Native imagery it would be a non issue but the name plus the logo plus the PC times we live in multiplied by the media hype equals a firestorm.

It's just a matter of time before they relent and change it. The 'name changers' will eventually get smart and realize that the way to the change is through the team and league sponsors, not appealing to the team or league itself. The Gov't involvement is a joke, they have no jurisdiction or influence on it, they're just pandering as politicians often do. I've said before, the only way the Gov't can influence a change is if the FCC deems 'Redskins' a racial slur and threatens to fine any network that uses it.

How can the logo be considered offensive when it was created, blessed, and presented by the Native Americans? That would then bring up this point. Are these Non-Native Americans assuming that Native Americans are too stupid to know when they should and should not be offended? Because honestly, that is the biggest message that these people in the PC movement are sending to the Native American community. And if I were a part of the Native American movement, I would strongly voice that these people, telling me what I should and should not be offended by, insults my intelligence and offends me more than some name of a sports team.

This is the argument that the anti-Redskins name group throws to the other side. "So you're telling us that you know more about what the Native Americans should and should not be offended by?" It's the same question to those in the PC movement. The only group whose voice matters in all of this is the Native Americans themselves. And they have been polled and an overwhelming majority has said it is not offensive to them. Why can't people just accept that and move on? Other than having some losing seasons on the field, what injustice has the Washington Redskins really done to the community?

[over the mountain]

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many people even think of Native Americans when you say "Redskins" anyway? That's a word associated with the football team in the minds of most. Nobody thinks about the Natives, or maybe I should cares...which I guess is what's really offensive

This is exactly the way I've always thought of it.

It's also why I get pissed when I hear the argument "You wouldn't go onto a Reservation and call someone a Redskins to their face, would you?" Well, no, I wouldn't, because I honestly don't ever think of it as a term meaning anything other than a name for the football team from the city that my family has lived in & around for generations.
I also don't make a habit of calling tall people 'Giants', I don't refer to people of Scandinavian decent 'Vikings, I don't say I'm from a 'Fightin' Irish Catholic family, and I don't actually believe that Drew Brees is a 'Saint.'

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

I would be more offended by the Cleveland Indians logo simply because it's turning their race into a cartoon character, where as the Redskins logo is not. To me, the Redskins logo looks quite honorable, and should be since it was the Native American community that provided the team with the logo.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

I have almost said this same thing before but figured it was best unsaid. The fact is, the reservations that have casinos on them are making hundreds of millions a year. Those Indians have only known Mercedes and million dollar homes since they have had those casinos.

If they were willing to give some of that money away, they could easily pull some of the others out of poverty. But when Ray Halbritter wont even spend a few bucks to get a starving Indian a big mac, he shouldnt be using other Indians as his ammunition. Not to mention, hes not even an Indian. He is something like 20% Indian, absolutely 0% Oneida Indian (Im 12-15% Cherokee but certainly do not feel I have the right to call myself an Indian, and he isnt much more than I am). But then again, if an Oneida Indian speaks out against him, they are kicked off the reservation.

Blog: Race-Baiting Oneida Nation Leader Has Problems of His Own

Ray Halbritter treats Indians a helluva lot worse than most, if not all, Washington Redskins fans.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

How can the logo be considered offensive when it was created, blessed, and presented by the Native Americans? That would then bring up this point. Are these Non-Native Americans assuming that Native Americans are too stupid to know when they should and should not be offended? Because honestly, that is the biggest message that these people in the PC movement are sending to the Native American community. And if I were a part of the Native American movement, I would strongly voice that these people, telling me what I should and should not be offended by, insults my intelligence and offends me more than some name of a sports team.

This is the argument that the anti-Redskins name group throws to the other side. "So you're telling us that you know more about what the Native Americans should and should not be offended by?" It's the same question to those in the PC movement. The only group whose voice matters in all of this is the Native Americans themselves. And they have been polled and an overwhelming majority has said it is not offensive to them. Why can't people just accept that and move on? Other than having some losing seasons on the field, what injustice has the Washington Redskins really done to the community?

That wasn't really the point I was making. I was referring to the point SS made about connecting 'Redskins' to Native Americans. I was saying that if the imagery didn't reflect an Indian, most non Redskins/football fans wouldn't think about it that deeply. For example, what mental image immediately comes with Packer, Steeler or Brown? Probably nothing because it's non-descript. If we just had an R on the side of the helmet, people wouldn't connect the dots as easily and wouldn't be able to layer levels of offended outrage.

You do make a great point however that this fight is being taken up primarily by non-Natives who are trying to make a name for themselves. There are some Native communities involved but as a whole they have bigger issues they are focusing on.