Who is Kirk Cousins?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.

Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Again, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?

You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.

I do know we have bigger problems. Didn't say we don't. But the division is so crappy that with 1 or 2 non disaster games from KC we would be in first. Heck, beat the Giants in the first game, and we are in first.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You win dude.

If you're gonna flat out deny Russ has anything to do with the team's rushing success its hard to have a real discussion about this. No point in even getting into his playmaking, ypa, mediocre receiving corps and spotty OL. Sure, Kirk is as good as Russell Wilson. And because 2 'propped up QBs' made SB runs then we should re-up Kirk right now?

That isn't close to what I said. Cheers.

Kap and Wilson contributed to their teams' success in the same way that RGIII made the 2012 run possible.

The former QBs had the benefit of top defenses as well and went further in my opinion as a result. Also, RGIII's injuries cut his run short compared to the other two. It has taken the league a little more time to catch up to the other two.

I believe that other QBs could have been inserted in either Kap or Wilson's slot during those years and had the same or similar success. (Case in point Alex Smith, who I would consider average.)

I believe that their ability to run, the 4 pro bowlers on their Olines and the two probowl RBs masked a lot of their deficiencies.

Not to say they didn't play well because they did, but many QBs would have success in that situation.

They are now being exposed for what they really are.

The reasons we should sign Kirk have nothing to do with them other than he has been in the polar opposite situation to those guys.

He doesn't have a running game or pro-bowl running backs or a top 3 defense to keep him from playing from behind.

The FO and GM have been able to see what Kirk really is without the benefit of those crutches propping him up. He has been average to above average and has had flashes of brilliance in the worst of situations.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.



Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Again, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?



You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.

Right on. If not for Cousins this game on Sunday would mean dick because we would be about 1-9.
We would be in first place if we had half a run defense has such a better jingle to it.

[rocnrik]

Agian i agree 10000% with you!!

[Bucket]

We have lots of issues right now. Our QB is not one of them for once.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

Kap and Wilson contributed to their teams' success in the same way that RGIII made the 2012 run possible.

...I believe that other QBs could have been inserted in either Kap or Wilson's slot during those years and had the same or similar success. (Case in point Alex Smith, who I would consider average.)

I believe that their ability to run, the 4 pro bowlers on their Olines and the two probowl RBs masked a lot of their deficiencies.

Not to say they didn't play well because they did, but many QBs would have success in that situation.

The reasons we should sign Kirk have nothing to do with them other than he has been in the polar opposite situation to those guys.

He doesn't have a running game or pro-bowl running backs or a top 3 defense to keep him from playing from behind.

You said their performances were propped up by defense and running game right? But you also say they played well. But then you say other QBs would have had success. Its like a moving target.

You're dismissing their production because of team success. (btw Rodgers had the #3 ranked defense when they won the SB, Alex Smith has had a top 5 run game and defense with KC)

Sure the defense helps with team success but their production as QBs is their production. The Seahawks had all the pieces in place prior to Russell. Already had the pieces on defense, already had Marshawn Lynch. But their offense was pedestrian prior to his arrival. Seattle's offense went from 22nd by Football Outsiders to 1st. 1st.

Offensively Kirk is in as good position to be productive on offense. (Kirk has a pro-bowler on the OL, and in the backfield also) The weapons on offense are similar, you could argue that Kirk has better weapons now then Russell did then.

But, whatevs...diminish or vacillate on their play in those seasons all you want.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Offensively Kirk is in as good position to be productive on offense. (Kirk has a pro-bowler on the OL, and in the backfield also)

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Just like SF and Seattle a few years back!

Every time they are going back to the huddle on 2nd and 9 down 2 scores, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You said their performances were propped up by defense and running game right? But you also say they played well. But then you say other QBs would have had success. Its like a moving target.

Those three things aren't mutually exclusive. It's not a moving target.

1. Their performances were propped up by the defense and the running game.

2. They did play well.

3. Other QBs would have had success with those teams.

All 3 are 100% true.

The incredibly average Alex Smith was 4 points away from a Super Bowl.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

Every time they are going back to the huddle on 2nd and 9 down 2 scores, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

Maybe Kirk just needs to add 800+ yards rushing?

You wanna trade DeSean, Garcon and Reed/Paul for Baldwin, Kearse and Willson/Helfert?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

And before Jay destroyed the run game Alf ran for 3 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

But sure Russ production was propped up by the same defense and run game that produced the 22nd ranked offense the year before and magically jumping to 1st when he took the helm.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

Maybe Kirk just needs to add 800+ yards rushing?

You wanna trade DeSean, Garcon and Reed/Paul for Baldwin, Kearse and Willson/Helfert?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

And before Jay destroyed the run game Alf ran for 3 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

But sure Russ production was propped up by the same defense and run game that produced the 22nd ranked offense the year before and magically jumping to 1st when he took the helm.

It wasn't magic, it was not having Tavaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst as the QB anymore.

Wilson was 29th in passing yards per game in 2012: 2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

They weren't number 1 in PPG, YPG, or total yards or total points. They were number 1 in F.O. DVOA ranking which is a good measure in my opinion.

They were actually 17th in total yards, 17th in yards per game, 9th in total points, and 9th in points per game: 2012 NFL Team Total Stats - National Football League - ESPN

I mean, Rex Grossman could have taken Seattle to a Super Bowl with that defense and run game. He actually did with Chicago.

In the offensive year you're talking about 2012,

Seattle's RB Lynch ranked 2nd
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2012

And Wilson ranked 8th
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2012

2013 Wilson ranked 9th, Lynch 5th
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2013

2014 Wilson ranked 13th, Lynch 2nd
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2014

2015 Wilson ranks 17th, Lynch 16th
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015

Yes, I think he has been propped up by a hall of fame running back who is the hardest man to get on the ground since Jim Brown. I also believe he has been propped up by the defense.

Wilson has actually declined from year to year while Lynch remained very consistent from 2012 to 2014.

Wilson has ranked below Lynch every year since coming in the league.

When Lynch was injured this year, Wilson wasn't able to rely on his hall of fame RB and he ranks in the bottom half of the league at 17 despite having the #8 D: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2015 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

Compare Wilson's numbers with Kirk Cousins this year:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015

Kirk ranks 10th, while Alf and Jones are 34th and 26th respectively and our defense is 25th.

Totally agree with Punch, we would be 1-9 without him.

I also think we would be 1-9 with Russell Wilson, or Kap, or RGIII.

Nobody is propping Kirk up this year, and Wilson only has the defense propping him up and you can see what the rankings are.

[Meks]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.

Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Aga|in, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?

You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.

This. Your were quoting a kirk hater credskinrule, <- you sir are grasping at straws with t-rex arms. Please leave such ramblings to yourself.

[30gut]

DY-

You are conflating the issue. I have always been talking about how Russ/Kaep played during their SB run. You are jumping around and somehow including your opinion of them this year and your overall opinion of them which both have nothing to do with how they played in those years.

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

They weren't number 1 in PPG, YPG, or total yards or total points. They were number 1 in F.O. DVOA ranking which is a good measure in my opinion.

You're again making my point. The Seahawks offense with roughly the same personnel jumped from 22nd in DVOA to 1st. DVOA is a much better measure of an offense then yards. Yards is impacted for better or worse by the quality or lack there of by the defense. Having a bad defense can mask empty yards and likewise having a good defense can reduce the yards of a good offense, especially passing yards.
But even in raw counting stats Seattles offense jumped with Wilson's arrival from 28th to 17th. And from 21st to 3rd in rushing. How do you account for that jump? Lynch just decided to be a more productive runner when Wilson arrived? How many other QBs can you plug in and have that type of increase? PPG They went from 23rd to 9th.

I don't see anything from the stats, (thats without even getting to his clutch play/game winning drives and playmaking) that shows Wilson's production on offense being propped up.

But, ive prolly already given this discussion more credence then it warranted.

Originally Posted by DY

Nobody is propping Kirk up this year, and Wilson only has the defense propping him up and you can see what the rankings are.

Well when I look at this offense it looks to me like Kirk is being aided by a passing game designed and called to protect and facilitate his success which has come at the detriment of the run game. And his YPA is close to league worst.

But I get it. You feel better about Kirk by somehow diminishing what Russ and Kaep did in their SB runs.

Either way I'm done, it was a good trytophan induced convo but im exhausted.

If Kirk can become as "propped up" as Wilson was during their SB runs I'll gladly take that kind of propped up prodction from Kirk.

[SCRedskinsFan]

30gut:

"But, ive prolly already given this discussion more credence then it warranted."

Classic.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You are conflating the issue. I have always been talking about how Russ/Kaep played during their SB run. You are jumping around and somehow including your opinion of them this year and your overall opinion of them which both have nothing to do with how they played in those years.

Originally Posted by 30gut

You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

Sorry, when you used the present tense, I thought you were referencing the present tense.

Lynch was the #2 running back in the league in 2011: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2011

The DIFFERENCE WAS RUSSELL WILSON. He came in and was not Tavaris Jackson or Charlie Whitehurst.

Wilson was 29th in the league in 2012 in passing yards per game.

The qualifier is that there are a number of other QBs that could have done the same thing with that team. Rex Grossman's D wasn't even compared to the '85 bears D like Wilson's and he game managed his way to a SB.

As I said earlier, for a team like the Seahawks with a great D and HOF running back, a QB can be 29th in the league in passing yards per game and play well. That's all he had to do to win. Good for him. All QBs should be that lucky.

The proof is in the pudding. Without Lynch, even with the D, Wilson ranks in the bottom half of the league; 17th.

His performance has trended exactly the opposite of what teams want. His F.O. ranking has declined every year even with Lynch; but he has been good enough to win with a HOF RB and the best D.

Originally Posted by 30gut

Well when I look at this offense it looks to me like Kirk is being aided by a passing game designed and called to protect and facilitate his success which has come at the detriment of the run game.

It's quotes like this that make me wonder if you're sincere, or just saying crazy stuff to get a reaction.

If they would have propped up RGIII like they are Kirk. . . Infinity and beyond!

[30gut]

DY-
I'm trying hard to move on. Really. But when you hood up simple passing yards as if that's a useful measure of QB performance i gotta call BS.