If Chargers can get a 1st & 3rd for Turner, don't we have to shop Betts?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

Two things:

1) First off, I do know what I am talking about. I said in my earlier post, "this is the NFL ladies and gents, people get traded and released after better seasons than Betts had last year." My entire point was that a move of that mature would NOT be a precedent in NFL front office policy. Key words were "released" and "traded."

Javon Walker wanted a deal done b4 his breakout season, and when it came back that he was performing at a probowl level, he wanted a renewed contract b4 his last season. He never got it, then reported to camp and got hurt early in the season. After a great season, injury came, and then he was traded on draft day. Hmmm, a draft day trade, oh, how SO relevant, but it is often overlooked, by the eager to respond internet pundits.

2) Betts contract is made to be trade bait. 5 yrs 12 mill + 3 mil bonus. There are kickers and back up across the league that have WwaaaaayyyY better contract than than, especially after ther resigning. Albeit, we could use a good backup RB, we need more depth as a team via draft picks, which we seriously lack.

thats all. we both/all have points, but draft day will show up soon and we will either have our deal or out one 1st day pick.

My point is, when the draft comes, and we see ALL of the players pass us by, we are gonna be wishing we could get at leat one or two. Then the forums will pop up here, and I will be there to let everyone know that we'd be pissed after we couldn't pick anymore in the first day.

BUt we will see come draft day.

Fine. I just thought it was wrong to lump Betts in the same sentence as guys like James and Vinatieri because the situations are not the same.

Moving on

[offiss]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

Two things:

1) First off, I do know what I am talking about. I said in my earlier post, "this is the NFL ladies and gents, people get traded and released after better seasons than Betts had last year." My entire point was that a move of that mature would NOT be a precedent in NFL front office policy. Key words were "released" and "traded."

Javon Walker wanted a deal done b4 his breakout season, and when it came back that he was performing at a probowl level, he wanted a renewed contract b4 his last season. He never got it, then reported to camp and got hurt early in the season. After a great season, injury came, and then he was traded on draft day. Hmmm, a draft day trade, oh, how SO relevant, but it is often overlooked, by the eager to respond internet pundits.

2) Betts contract is made to be trade bait. 5 yrs 12 mill + 3 mil bonus. There are kickers and back up across the league that have WwaaaaayyyY better contract than than, especially after ther resigning. Albeit, we could use a good backup RB, we need more depth as a team via draft picks, which we seriously lack.

thats all. we both/all have points, but draft day will show up soon and we will either have our deal or out one 1st day pick.

My point is, when the draft comes, and we see ALL of the players pass us by, we are gonna be wishing we could get at leat one or two. Then the forums will pop up here, and I will be there to let everyone know that we'd be pissed after we couldn't pick anymore in the first day.

BUt we will see come draft day.

I agree that we should trade off a back for picks, but it aint Betts, I would think we could get something along the lines of the hershel Walker deal for a superstar like Portis.

[dmek25]

the colts only got a 2nd and a 5th for marshall faulk

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by offiss

What it comes down to is this, you either have the eye to see what this guy really is, or you don't. I recieved the same nonesense about Lavar when I said he wasen't that good, as well as Brunell, so we will just take the wait and see aproach.

And if you think the 2004 season is meaningless think again, there is a reason Portis bulked up, he didn't want to be battered like he was in 2004 where Gibbs ran him into the ground as if he were Riggins trying to justify the trade for him. Bottom line regardless it was and will always be a lowsey trade for us. Portis is under the gun this season because he will be compared to Betts under the same conditions so he better outplay him.

I'm guessing you don't have the mystical eye of running back evaluation then.

Explain why I should put more stock into 2004 when two more recent seasons argue that it was a fluke.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

That was a lowsey post, Smootsmack.

Often times I understand where Offiss is coming from, and agree with him on a regular basis. But I can't do it for Portis. I agree he's a system back, but many backs in this league are. You build the offense to his strengths and he's a definite stud in this league. Worth the trade we gave, probably not, but champ didn't want to be here and Portis is awesome!

If most RBs are system backs, then what does the term system back really mean?

I don't think "system back" has any meaning whatsoever.

I think that there are systems that are more RB friendly than others. Denver is the most obvious example. RB friendly sytems such as Denver will inflate a RB's raw numbers the same way a QB friendly system, such as the west coast, would inflate a QB's raw numbers. But this is a universial effect. If Portis is a better back than Betts here, he's a better back than Betts in ANY system. Every one of the 32 teams. Some systems are better for RBs than others. That means they are better for ALL RBs, not just a select few.

If a guy was a "system back", most certainly he would have weaknesses as a runner that a certain system would hide. But what weaknesses does a runner have? Take TJ Duckett for example. He tends to tiptoe into contact, and doesn't always drive his legs once he makes contact. Can someone give me an example of a running system that would hide this weakness?

System backs, as we believe them to be, simply do not exist.

[MTK]

I guess I don't get what a system back is, at least not the way some people use the term around here.

Portis has proven he is still a top back outside of Denver... so how does that make him a system back??

[GTripp0012]

Portis should actually be the poster child for calling bs on the system back theory.

His raw numbers fell slightly from Denver because his current system isn't as friendly to RBs. That's to be expected.

But anyone expecting him to fall off the face of the earth once he left Denver now has to explain why he performed so well in 2005 and the first half of 2006. I'd be willing to bet that no one here can come up with a response that can just write off a year and a half of accomplishments.

2004 was a horrible year for Portis. But can anyone really explain why, and give a reason to expect 2004 to repeat itself? I doubt it.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I guess I don't get what a system back is, at least not the way some people use the term around here.

Portis has proven he is still a top back outside of Denver... so how does that make him a system back??

Additionally, I don't understand how people throw around the term "north-south runner". Seems that every back that's ever had success in this league knew that to gain yards, he'd have to get up the field. Seems to me that that would make him, by definition, a "north-south" runner.

Doesn't south imply running backwards?

The ultimate conclusion: Watching football discussion shows is bad for the american public.

[SmootSmack]

Well, if he's a "system back" he's in the right system. Joe Gibbs did win Super Bowls with three different lead running backs after all

[offiss]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'm guessing you don't have the mystical eye of running back evaluation then.

Explain why I should put more stock into 2004 when two more recent seasons argue that it was a fluke.

I do, becuase if it were my call Stephen Jackson would be a Skin, and SJ is a much better back then Portis.

Funny all I here is how great Portis was last season, who was better him or Betts? You know Betts the RB I have been saying is better suited for Gibbs style of offense for 3 years now, almost everyone on this site was calling him a waste and a lowsy RB before Portis went down, and now he's so valuable he's untradable.

One more for the mystical eye, Adrian Peterson will be a better back than Portis!

[MTK]

Portis has topped 1500 yards 3 times in his career, Jackson just did it for the first time last year. I think Jackson has a little catching up to do. Just for kicks let's see who Scouts Inc. thinks is the better player:

Steven Jackson
2006 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc. Grade: 76 | Key
Alert: None

Comment:
Jackson has a very good combination of size, strength and foot quickness. He is a workhorse back who can wear down a defense over four quarters. He needs touches to get into the flow. He is powerful and elusive for his size. He can lower his pads and run defenders over or jump-cut and make someone miss. He runs with excellent balance and body control, rarely going down on first contact. He flashes a good stiff-arm and regularly falls forward after contact. He has excellent vision and flashes the speed to get the corner. He can drag defensive backs for extra yards when he gets outside. He has very good hands and is an above-average route runner. He is a load to bring down after the catch. But Jackson isn't very sudden or quick. He isn't very shifty and lacks a second gear to run away from a defense in the open field. He isn't quite quick enough to consistently separate in his routes. He could show more patience as a runner. He sometimes runs up the back of his linemen. He had some ball-security issues in 2005. He gets dinged up and misses time.

Clinton Portis
2006 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc. Grade: 89 | Key
Alert: None

Comment:
Portis has excellent foot quickness, change-of-direction skills and elusiveness. He shows excellent initial quickness in getting to and through the hole. He consistently makes a defender miss with his lateral quickness and jump-cut once he hits the hole. He is a very good zone runner. He has excellent vision, patience and great anticipation for where the hole will develop. He shows excellent start-stop quickness. He stays in balance when he cuts, has some wiggle and will bounce off tacklers. He flashes the ability to push the pile and make yards after contact. He has good receiving skills: decent hands and dangerous after-the-catch ability on screens and check-downs. He knows his blocking responsibilities and is at his best chipping and releasing into an underneath route. But Portis is undersized and tends to get a little nicked up. He doesn't have outstanding power or elite speed, though he sometimes can find an extra gear. He doesn't run a lot of routes or adjust especially well to bad passes. He is just an average blocker. He won't consistently pick up a blitzing linebacker.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

I do, becuase if it were my call Stephen Jackson would be a Skin, and SJ is a much better back then Portis.

Funny all I here is how great Portis was last season, who was better him or Betts? You know Betts the RB I have been saying is better suited for Gibbs style of offense for 3 years now, almost everyone on this site was calling him a waste and a lowsy RB before Portis went down, and now he's so valuable he's untradable.

One more for the mystical eye, Adrian Peterson will be a better back than Portis!

You also said Kevin Jones and Julius Jones would be better than CP, yet at the same time you said CP could be just what the Gibbs' offense needs-his best running back ever.

Betts is a fine RB, but he has to take care of his fumbling problem. And he needs to show that he can stay healthy...not only in a contract year for him.

I should just give up any hope that you'll ever learn how to spell "lousy" correctly shouldn't I?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You also said Kevin Jones and Julius Jones would be better than CP, yet at the same time you said CP could be just what the Gibbs' offense needs-his best running back ever.

Betts is a fine RB, but he has to take care of his fumbling problem. And he needs to show that he can stay healthy...not only in a contract year for him.

I should just give up any hope that you'll ever learn how to spell "lousy" correctly shouldn't I?

Yes you should.

And please try to stop harping on one post after I screamed and yelled about how bad that deal for Portis was before we made it, you know just like I did with Brunell. Trying to find a silver lining in a black cloud to try and not believe that Gibbs is off his rocker is allowed once in a while. You might remember that I said Gibbs would have to change the style of his running game to do it in one of those posts as well, funny after a year and half why was Gibbs changing the line blocking for Portis if it is to be believed he was so great? Why has Portis constantly complained about how he is and has been used?

I still like Julies Jones he runs behind a worse line than Portis and still gets his yards, they infact remind me of each other, Portis a little faster, Jones runs a little harder.

As for Kevin Jones I really think he needs to get with a real team, I will judge no player with his kind of potential until he leaves detroit, kind of how tampa bay was for years back in the day.

The fact is I would take either one of those backs over Portis if I am allowed to take back the Bailey trade and trade Bailey off for what I believe we could have recieved was a couple of #1 picks, or at the very least a 1,2,and a 3, that trade would have given us 3 extra picks plus our #2 back, as well we wouldn't have 52 mil invested in one player who is now splitting time with his backup. And yes under those circumstances Stephen Jackson would be a Skin. Along with a lot of other talent to say the least!

As I have stated other times I wanted us to draft Portis with the 2nd round pick when he came out, I thought he would be a great change of pace back who could get you 15 quality carries per game, but he was over blown in that denver style of zone blocking which is perfect for him, he can't handle the work load of an everydown back in a coventional running attack he gets to beat up. Giving up all we gave up and could of had for Portis will never make sense, my biggest problem with Portis has alway's been what he cost us, I would be signing his praises as a player if he were our second rd choice and his contract was reasonable for his abilities, but thats obviously not the case.

Anyway have a blessed Easter SS, and you to matty!

[holcknowsbest]

this is where the comparisons stop...CLINTON PORTIS IS WAY BETTER THAN BETTS.....BETTS IS NOT MORE OF A JOE GIBBS BACK THAN PORTIS....GIVE CLINTON PORTIS THOSE HOLES BETTS GOT AND HE RUNS FOR 2000 YARDS..BY THE WAY DO YOU THINK THAT IN THE RAMS GAME, CLINTON GETS RUN DOWN AND STRIPPED???? NOPE HE DOESNT!.....with all that said i love betts because of his skills as a reciever and runner. but hes not clinton portis. if we could ever get an extra first round pick for betts i think its a must do....the reasoning is that running backs like betts are a dime a dozen man, they can be had in almost any round of the draft....guys like clinton are not, he is one of the fastest running backs in the nfl and his production matches or is better than most hall of famers through his first 5 years...you dont compare a guy like betts to portis, it just doesnt make sense.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by offiss

I do, becuase if it were my call Stephen Jackson would be a Skin, and SJ is a much better back then Portis.

Funny all I here is how great Portis was last season, who was better him or Betts? You know Betts the RB I have been saying is better suited for Gibbs style of offense for 3 years now, almost everyone on this site was calling him a waste and a lowsy RB before Portis went down, and now he's so valuable he's untradable.

One more for the mystical eye, Adrian Peterson will be a better back than Portis!

Both Stephen Jackson and Adrian Peterson were higher rated than Portis was coming out of college. So if you think it takes some mystical eye to agree with the majority opinion, I really don't know what to tell you.

Portis and Betts are close in talent. Not so close that we can't see that Portis is better, but close.

I personally don't think Adrian Peterson will be as good at Portis. Adrian Peterson has a very undisciplined running style. At his prime, he probably won't be as good as Portis is now. I think it's going to take a few years for the team that drafts Peterson to see any return on him. He's overrated.

Jackson is probably a better back than Portis, but you're splitting hairs. It's really close and even though Denver was the one who received all the value, Portis was a much smarter pick than Jackson. Had we traded Champ and a 2nd rounder to move up and take Jackson, I really don't think our team would be too much different right now at all.