Gibbs

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Exactly, but to whom? Those people don't have jobs looking on the managment side of the game anymore.

Because those people also thought Akili Smith>McNabb, Vick>Brees, A. Smith>Campbell, Russell>Quinn...etc.

It was pretty solid opinion in league circles that Manning was the can't miss prospect, and that Leaf was the intriguing, more gifted prospect, but given the choice of the two, the can't miss prospect should be taken every time.

The better debate is whether or not Leaf was good enough to warrant the second overall pick. The Chargers obviously thought so despite all the red flags around him and they got burned. At the time, the Chargers had a knack for making moves like that. Then they got a smarter GM, ended by on the right side of the Vick vs. Brees debate, ended up getting Tomlinson out of the deal, and were able to add Gates, Merriman, Cromartie, Jamal Williams, Igor Olshansky, and Luis Castillo. 3 of which were first round picks.

Bobby Beathard was the GM that selected Leaf. Yes, that was a stupendous bust, but to say that SD got a smarter GM after that? If there was a Mount Rushmore of NFL General Managers, Bobby Beathard would be on it.

[Beemnseven]

Well, it's not like Beathard had a choice between Manning and Leaf. The Colts chose first, and the Chargers were left with a need at QB and the word on Ryan Leaf was generally good. So they took him.

[Stacks42]

The skins need a GM point blank. The one constant that we have seen through years of different coaching (Norv, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, Gibbs) is bad personelle moves. We have flashes of great drafted players (i.e. Lavar, Cooley, Samuels) only to be followed by horrible moves that hurt us for years (Sanders, B. Smith, M. Brunell, B. Lloyd, A. Archuletta) with thrown dead cap money and thrown away draft pics.

If we look outside the bubble that is the Redskins, the rest of the NFL is laughing at the skins for the stupid personelle moves. We alway look good on paper, but once one of the 22 starters goes down, the season is over, because we have no depth.

And to answer the question, NO, I dont think we are better off with Gibbs' decisions. I think we are in the same boat that we have been in ever since Snyder took over, a bunch of Overhyped/overaged/overpaid players that are great on paper, but when it comes down to record are only average at best.

[Redskin334]

Wow I didn't know so many people hated Gibbs on this site. He did a lot of great things but he did alot of questionable things but what coach hasn't.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Well, it's not like Beathard had a choice between Manning and Leaf. The Colts chose first, and the Chargers were left with a need at QB and the word on Ryan Leaf was generally good. So they took him.

What's interesting though is that people forget that Beathard traded, I think, two first rounders and two second rounders to move up to 2nd in the draft.

And it blew up in his face. He made a bad decision, he's human. If we hired a "General Manager" so will that person. I don't know that people here realize that. I think there's some unreal expectations of what a "General Manager" would bring.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by skinsfan242

I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.

Maybe you've forgotten to compare Gibbs' record over the last four years with Spurrier's record.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

We're talking about a foundation for the future. Beyond the 1st rounders (Landry, Campbell, Taylor, Rogers) we have, in my opinion, selected players in later rounds that are a foundation for future. Such as the ones mentioned above.

There's vast room for improvement, no question. But it's not as dismal as some think.

It's dismal. We're brittle and old. We have major work to do on both the OL and the DL, as well as at WR and CB. Springs and Smoot are injuries waiting to happen and Rogers looks bad. I thought Betts was going to be a top player after last year, but he's barely adequate as a back-up RB and Portis is becoming injured on a regular basis.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Irish,

Look at the last 3-4 drafts and then state that just 20% of the 1st round picks were busts. Looking at 2005, I would classify the following picks as busts:

#1 Alex Smith
#5 Carnell Williams (he was under the gun before the injury)
#6 Pacman Jones (he hasn't worked out, doesn't matter why)
#7 Troy Williamson
#8 Antrel Rolle
#10 Mike Williams
#16 Travis Johnson (1 sack 3 years)
#17 David Pollack
#18 Erasmus James (4 sacks in 3 years)
#20 Marcus Spears (3.5 sacks in 3 years)
#21 Matt Jones

That's 11 out of 32. Moreover Rod Gardner-types are likely to emerge, i.e., guys who look okay now, but turn out to be busts down the road.

Contrary to your assertions, you did claim that it was easy to pick 1st rounders. You stated that anyone with a basic understanding of college football could pick quality 1st rounders. You then stated that you never said it was easy to pick 1st rounders.

[MTRedskinsFan]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I hate to be a copy and paster, but Steve Czaban does a much better job at venting his frustrations of Gibbs' personnel decision making than I ever could. Here's what he said on Nov. 9.

skinsfan242, this one is for you:

Czabe.com

The inevitable Brandon Lloyd career death spiral has begun in earnest. It’s just a matter of time now.

See, the Skins can’t afford to cut loose the part-time wideout/rapper right now. His cap penalty before June 1 would put the Redskins in a massive bind. Not that they aren’t already looking at a big problem for next year anyway. The team is some $10 over the cap based on just 43 players under contract.

Anyhow, whenever Lloyd does hang up the ol’ Redskins #85 (the same number as Darnerian McCants, by the way. Must be haunted…) it will cap a trifecta of horrible personnel moves that may never, ever, ever be topped in Redskin history.

First the Skins get penny foolish and let capable safety Ryan Clark go, and then spend quadruple what he was asking for to get Adam Archuleta. Then the Skins surrendered two picks for Lloyd, and ripped up his contract. Then the Skins panicked and sent two more picks packing for T.J. Duckett. In total, these three players will have given the Redskins ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on the field, at a cost so exorbitant, it hurts your head just thinking about it.

The Redskins under Snyder (and Gibbs has adopted this mantra, making it all the more infuriating) like to brag about being “aggressive” in their player acquisition process.

Aggressive, as in stupid, that is.

The Redskins under Snyder/Gibbs have nearly written a Player Personnel Disasters 101 handbook in just a few years.

Doing things like overpaying for marginal players (Archuleta), throwing draft picks away on a whim (T.J. Duckett) and ripping up contracts of players without them ever proving anything first in your uniform (Lloyd). The mere thought of a 3rd and a 4th rounder for Duckett, another 3rd and 4th for Lloyd, plus the millions paid to all of them is enough to make you sick. How come Danny and Gibby are too stupid to realize that they acquired three players who gave them absolutely NOTHING, at the cost of nearly $20 million in guaranteed money and 4 players who might be on their way to becoming stars.

The draft picks tossed aside so casually, could be an additional Cooley, Dockery, Montgomery and McIntosh without even breaking a sweat! If you ever thought that Snyder somehow was NOT the actual GM of this team, look closely at this unholy trio. They have all the makings of a typical Snyder move. It’s flash and bravado, and not a lick of common football sense. For Archuleta, he was desperate to rejoin Lovie Smith with the Bears. Arch had a deal basically in place. But Snyder just hates it when he doesn’t get his man. So he offered a contract so stupid, Arch just had to take it. Now he’s in Chicago anyway (and not very good) with Snyder’s cash, and we’re still paying off the cap hit.

For Duckett, the rumor was that the Skins just wanted him out of Philly’s hands. This would be typical Snyder too. Like the Trotter signing, he just loves to THINK that he’s somehow messing up other teams’ plans. And for Lloyd, it’s a pure love affair with the flashy. Typical Snyder guy. You want a stat that blankets this entire stupid Gibbs’ return? Here it is... The Skins haven’t had their own 2nd, 3rd or 4th round picks in the FOUR drafts that Gibbs has been here! (The selections of Cooley and McIntosh in those spots required re-acquisition of a pick from another team – for a future pick or more! Duh….) No NFL team can have any sustained success this way. It’s nuts!

And don’t even get me started on how stupidly some of the others were thrown out the window. A 3rd rounder for Brunnell. Gag. A 2nd rounder to help Denver fleece us even more on the Champ for Portis deal. Ugh. Hell, we even chucked a 7th rounder for James Thrash. Genius! Brilliant!

This is why I have come to hate Joe Gibbs 2.0 with a venom that has even shocked me at times. It wouldn’t have been as bad, if Joe 2.0 had made some big, but honest, mistakes in personnel. But these moves have been so colossally stupid from the word “go” that it can put you into a rage. And if you want to check the tapes, I objected to Lloyd and Archuleta from the minute they were announced, and was blasé at best about “Arch Deluxe.” So it’s not like I – or anybody else – is trying to play Monday morning quarterback on these moves.

I honestly thought Gibbs was going to tame Snyder, and bring about a whole new era of competent team building in place. Instead, the opposite has happened. Snyder has corrupted and co-opted Gibbs. It sickens me as a fan. Just plain sickens.

Point well argued that for the decent or good acquisitions Gibbs has made his handful of blunders have been huge. I think what needs to also be pointed out in this regard is that Gibbs' blunders have longer term implications for this franchise as compared to the good picks/trades. First w/ the cap situation, but also in trading away so many draft picks for players near the end of their careers and in some cases well into decline. Snyder/Gibbs strategy has obviously been shortsighted in this regard.

But I want to make the argument that this issue - of Gibbs' eye for talent - is basically nonsensical. His performance come gametime is the real issue in Gibbs 2.0. Suspect playcalling, baffling time-management, ho-hum attitude everyday and all day long; these are the things that define his second tenure.

In a statement: if Gibbs swapped places with, say, Belichick (whom I dislike but respect as a great coach) today, we'd see the performance of the Patriots decline, even dramatically, and the performance of the Skins increase for the rest of the season. The biggest problem week to week is what Gibbs does week to week and not from end of season to beginning IMO.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Czabe got it wrong, we didn't trade a 7th for Thrash, we traded a 5th rounder.

[rk3025]

Guess vve should replace the GM's in the league vvith college fans if you think drafting is easy?
Nobody vvanted Tony Romo

Originally Posted by irish

Thats what I said and obvoiusly the % proves me correct.

The draft is speculative. The player is being selected based on his past performance and future potential (kind of like stocks). There is no sure thing but the 1st round pick is as close to a sure thing as you can get.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I agree wholeheartedly.

Landing a quality first or second round pick isn't rocket science. You just have to evaluate properly.

But evaluating 1st rounders properly on a consistent basis is something that few, if any, teams can do. If the experts (i.e., the people who get paid millions to make picks) can't do it, it is rocket science IMO.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Exactly. I think a big reason injuries seem to devastate us so much is the lack of quality depth to fill in the holes. A prime example is how well middle round picks are contributing for us right now (Golston, Montgomery, Cooley, Blades, etc). Another handful of guys like that and our injury bug might not sting as much.

The lack of middle round picks definitely hurts our depth. However, the lack of middle round picks may hurt us even more by forcing us to turn our roster over. Without such middle round picks, we are forced to bring in aging vets to fill holes that those middle round picks would fill. In the short run, those aging vets typically play better than rookies and younger players. In the long run, however, bringing in guys when they already have 5 years under their belts forces us to turn the roster over more frequently. The average age of our players is 29 (among the oldest, if not the oldest, average in the league). 20 players on our roster are at least 30 years old (compared with 6 such players on the Cowboys' roster). Nearly half of our starters are at least 30 years old (i.e., Springs, Fletcher, Washington, Daniels, Griffin, Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, Jansen). I don't know how others feel, but I definitely believe that such turnover isn't a good thing.

[He Hate Me]

Originally Posted by skinsfan242

I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.

Good points... Get him off the field and in the front office.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by skinsfan242

I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.

In order to be a top NFL team we have to have guys that our at the top of they're positions and right now we just don't have the talent level. Even if we were 100% healthy we still do not match up with the top teams.

The biggest mistakes Gibbs has made is giving up draft picks for Duckett, Brunell and Lloyd. He's in year 4 and none of those guys are even on the field or on the roster. So you have 3 guys he gave up picks for that don't play. On top of that he lost the drat picks too. So what's that? 8 or 9 guys that could or should be contributing that are not. Instead he fills the spots with FA's that come from another system and it just doesn't work.