Jason Whitlock column on Taylor

[BleedBurgundy]

For the record, this is why I said subculture:

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Edit- I just read your latest post. IF violence is not a key element in hip hop, if it is only what the salesmen sell, then don't you think it is important that the positive forces in hip hop start getting the pub that all of the thugs are currently receiving? Personally, I am not a fan of rap music because of the message, not the delivery. I don't envy those in economically difficult situations, nor those in prison, nor those making money selling drugs. That may be only the vocal minority in the hip hop community espousing those views but as a very casual observer, that is what I am hearing.

Don't mistake the business of hip hop with the culture of hip hop. That's what I mean by salesmen. And that's the only message you're getting with hip hop through those salesmen.

If you really feel strongly about hip hop's influence then find some solutions. I'm not saying it's right, but there's no real organization because it is driven by the hip hop business industry. But make no mistake, hip hop is not going away anytime soon - it's actually getting stronger and gaining more influence.

One other thing, some of those answers that you have come up with are general solutions to any social issues - education, community help, leadership. I guess that's what's needed - but how do you do/initiate this?

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

For the record, this is why I said subculture:

I agree with the definition but I would take away subgroup(replace it with group) and sub from subculture.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

If you really feel strongly about hip hop's influence then find some solutions. I'm not saying it's right, but there's no real organization because it is driven by the hip hop business industry. But make no mistake, hip hop is not going away anytime soon - it's actually getting stronger and gaining more influence.

One other thing, some of those answers that you have come up with are general solutions to any social issues - education, community help, leadership. I guess that's what's needed - but how do you do/initiate this?

They are general solutions, because it's a general problem. The only way to initiate it is to openly discuss it like we are right now. Without attacking race and other issues that truly are not the root of the problem. The only way to affect any real change in america is with money, let's be honest. If consumers started spending their money on hip hop artists with a positive message (Common is one of the few that i can think of...) then the industry will gradually change. It's going to take STRONG, credible community leaders though.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

They are general solutions, because it's a general problem. The only way to initiate it is to openly discuss it like we are right now. Without attacking race and other issues that truly are not the root of the problem. The only way to affect any real change in america is with money, let's be honest. If consumers started spending their money on hip hop artists with a positive message (Common is one of the few that i can think of...) then the industry will gradually change. It's going to take STRONG, credible community leaders though.

Selling positive messages does not work - it does not work in the TV, Film, Sports, and Internet media industries. How will it work for hip hop? And we cannot control hip hop artists or anyone else, only ourselves. We can have an influence, depending on relationships and our political and economic power, on someone else, but not we may not be able to convince them to do anything. Of course, everyone thinks about their own well-being first and then maybe social issues.

[FRPLG]

warriorzpath,

I think we mostly disagree on these issues but I can respect what you have said because you have stated it well, with passion and intelligence. One thing you have said several times is that people shouldn't be identifying issues without coming up with solutions. I do think that to be slightly naive. It is disingenuous to ridicule someone for pointing out a problem without offering a solution. It is also lacking much thought because if finding the solutions to problems was as easy as identifying them then we'd probably have very few problems in this world. Inevitably though most problesm require much more thought and dilligence in solving them rather than simply seeing them. I have no problem with Whitlock pointing them out. It is the first step to solving the problem.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Selling positive messages does not work - it does not work in the TV, Film, Sports, and Internet media industries. How will it work for hip hop? And we cannot control hip hop artists or anyone else, only ourselves. We can have an influence, depending on relationships and our political and economic power, on someone else, but not we cannot control them.

Does not work? How so?

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Does not work? How so?

Because what drives these industries, first and foremost, is money. The priority is to provide what sells regardless of social impact. Then the next priority may be social impact, maybe.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Selling positive messages does not work - it does not work in the TV, Film, Sports, and Internet media industries. How will it work for hip hop? And we cannot control hip hop artists or anyone else, only ourselves. We can have an influence, depending on relationships and our political and economic power, on someone else, but not we cannot control them.

I'm going to draw a parallel that is more than a bit of a stretch. 30 years ago, everyone knew smoking was bad for you. But they didn't know how bad. Then when they learned how bad, they still didn't stop because they were addicted. It was a habit that was literally ingrained in our culture. Over the past decade or so the country has had the "right" choice literally forced on them. No smoking in bars, businesses or buses for that matter. People bitched and moaned (still are) every step of the way but in the end, we're all better for it. This is not all that different if you think about it. The problem is wide spread, the issue is intertwined with the culture and the end result is deadly. You know, in Germany, it is illegal to say anything positive about Nazism or Hitler. Why? Because the country wants to try to keep from going back to that dark place. They made the decision that for the good of all they would infringe on the free speech of a few. That can be a slippery slope but in some cases it is obviously necessary. I think we are approaching that point. Maybe in addition to community action, education and responsible consumerism, there needs to be legislation that makes it illegal to profit off of any kind of "hate." It would be a hugely controversial issue but eventually it MAY be the only way. I don't know.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Because what drives these industries, first and foremost, is money. The priority is to provide what sells regardless of social impact. Then the next priority may be social impact, maybe.

Maybe a better way to say it would be "does not work very well" instead of "does not work."

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

warriorzpath,

I think we mostly disagree on these issues but I can respect what you have said because you have stated it well, with passion and intelligence. One thing you have said several times is that people shouldn't be identifying issues without coming up with solutions. I do think that to be slightly naive. It is disingenuous to ridicule someone for pointing out a problem without offering a solution. It is also lacking much thought because if finding the solutions to problems was as easy as identifying them then we'd probably have very few problems in this world. Inevitably though most problesm require much more thought and dilligence in solving them rather than simply seeing them. I have no problem with Whitlock pointing them out. It is the first step to solving the problem.

I think I found one good first option (trying to meet with a hip hop leader). I disagree with not being responsible enough to find solutions, when you point out problems. I do not respect his views because he provides the problems, but doesn't have anything to add or contribute to solve them.

If he already has this much visibility then he must have some kind of influence.

[BleedBurgundy]

The first step to fixing a problem is identifying that there is a problem. I do believe we can all agree on that. The next step is convincing others that there is a problem... only then can you find a solution.

[Dirtbag59]

Man, thats deep.

[BleedBurgundy]

Didn't mean to sound like confucious.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Selling positive messages does not work - it does not work in the TV, Film, Sports, and Internet media industries. How will it work for hip hop? And we cannot control hip hop artists or anyone else, only ourselves. We can have an influence, depending on relationships and our political and economic power, on someone else, but not we may not be able to convince them to do anything. Of course, everyone thinks about their own well-being first and then maybe social issues.

I think you have hit on a major part of the solution. Grassroots involvement. Everyone needs to be involved in the lives of these teenagers / young men who are at risk. Volunteer at the local schools, talk to kids in your neighboorhood, be involved with extended family. Try to help single parents if they need it.

You are absolutely right, we will never change the rap/hip-hop lyrics or message beause there is too much money to be made by the "artists" (used losely) and because there is no such thing as a socially responsible corporation. Corporations by nature are concerned with only one thing, profits. The only time they make the appearance of being socially responsible is when it helps generate (or protect) profits.

We need to re-inforce to the young men in our country that the rappers, TV & movie personalities aren't "real". They are selling an image and writing lyrics that "gets them paid". They don't live in the projects or in low-income housing. They aren't on the corner "hustlin'". They may have at one point in their lives, but once they got a break and became successful, 98% of them get out of the "hood" as fast as they can.

We need to try to keep the energy these young men have focused in a positive way on sports & academics or whatever other positive activity can keep them interested. Most of all we can't ever give up on these young men or wait for someone else to come up with a solution (gov't, corporations, leaders).

I think about the kids I coach and am always concerned between the end of the season and pre-season workouts because I don't see them and can't give them some corny message or cliche about "doing their homework" or "staying out of trouble". I just pray that I don't get a phone call, letting me know we lost a young man to arrest or worse.

I know we won't be able to save every young man, but we will save some and that's why we need to keep re-inforcing the positive messages on a on-on-one level, get an education, learn to win/lose respectably, learn to work within a team and be good teammate, learn to be a leader. If we can connect one-on-one and stay involved in their lives and let them know we care, they will have something to live for other than "gettin' mine", their "cred", or being a "soulja". We just have to keep trying to show them the path Sean had already found with the birth of his daughter and hope they take it.