The Real Problem of the Redskins ...

[Dirtbag59]

Snyders fingerprints continue to be all over this team. The article did an excellent job of pointing out the main problem with Snyder being a bad GM. However as to why Snyder is a bad GM, well I blame his obseccion with creating a high powered passing game, on top of the "being a GM is fun idea." I'd add that Snyder thinks "being the GM of a team with a high powered attack is fun."

And now the evidence:

- Hired Spurrier because he wanted a great passing game

- Drafted Ramsey because he wanted a QB to run the passing game

- At the very least, influenced Vinny to the point where the team grabbed three pass catchers in the second round

- Brought in Zorn to run the West Coast Offense while keeping the running game

- Hired Saunders in part because of his connection with the greatest show on turf. Of course his background with Gibbs helped to.

- Was involved in the circle that brought in JC with a first round pick though this ones more on Gibbs in my mind

- Since he has owned the Redskins the team has acquired Taylor Jacobs, Cliff Russell, ARE, Brandon Lloyd, D. Thomas, M. Kelly, L. Coles, and S. Moss. I would add Rod Gardner to the list but that was Marty's call. To those of you counting at home thats 6 draft picks used on Recievers since 2002. In the meantime we have gone after Braylon Edwards (before the draft), Charles Rogers (before the draft), Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson (before the draft), Chad Johnson, A. Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, and Roy Williams. This team, this front office, is way to commited to finding recievers and as a result we've seen our front lines crumble. And with the recent success of the Arizona Cardinals I see Snyder grabing hold of an out to continue to try and build a passing game at the expense of the front lines.

However one of my biggest problems as of late with Snyder trying to build through the air is that in our division and location it's not exactly practical. Is it possible? Of course, history proves that. However history also proves that our best bet at being a winner is playing smash mouth football. I mean look at the facts. We play in a location where it gets cold near the end of the year. On top of that our division opponents play in cold weather locations, save Dallas. It's common sense that passing games function better in warm weather. I mean hell our passing game was fine this year when the temperature was in the low 90's high 80's.

Another problem is our division is full of teams equipped to rush the passer. The Eagles, Cowboys, and Giants all have the ability to get after the Quarterback. Why on Earth would we be trying to build this super awesome passing game? I mean theres a reason that every team in the NFC East is good at running the ball, because where we play, running the ball is not a luxury, it's an element of survival (in the football sense of course).

So until Snyder stops daydreaming about the Rams during the early part of the decade we will continue to go downhill.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

However one of my biggest problems as of late with Snyder trying to build through the air is that in our division and location it's not exactly practical. Is it possible? Of course, history proves that. However history also proves that our best bet at being a winner is playing smash mouth football. I mean look at the facts. We play in a location where it gets cold near the end of the year. On top of that our division opponents play in cold weather locations, save Dallas. It's common sense that passing games function better in warm weather. I mean hell our passing game was fine this year when the temperature was in the low 90's high 80's.

Another problem is our division is full of teams equipped to rush the passer. The Eagles, Cowboys, and Giants all have the ability to get after the Quarterback. Why on Earth would we be trying to build this super awesome passing game? I mean theres a reason that every team in the NFC East is good at running the ball, because where we play, running the ball is not a luxury, it's an element of survival (in the football sense of course).

So until Snyder stops daydreaming about the Rams during the early part of the decade we will continue to go downhill.

The legend of 'smashmouth football' is a past it's time. The team that has dominiated the NFC East for a decade has been the Eagles, a team that passes no less than 60% of the time. We've got to get away from our past and the 'pound the rock' mentality. The Hogs, Riggo, Joey T, Coach Gibbs are all the past, the present and future is winning through the air. By the way, New England plays in a cold weather area, how did their passing game fare the past few years? They've never been a running team and I think for the most part they did OK the past decade.

While Spurrier was a joke of a head coach, I'd bet as an offensive coordinator he'd be damn successful. Points are scored in the passing game in today's NFL. We've tried to get with the times but we've failed miserably at establishing franchise cornerstones at two positions, QB and #1 WR. Yes the lines are very important, but two teams with terrible OL this season were the Steelers and Cardinals. How did that work out for them? They have however elite QB and a legitimate #1 WR. You can get away with less than elite OL if you are elite at other positions. We're not elite anywhere, merely 'good' at a few spots.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

The legend of 'smashmouth football' is a past it's time. The team that has dominiated the NFC East for a decade has been the Eagles, a team that passes no less than 60% of the time. We've got to get away from our past and the 'pound the rock' mentality. The Hogs, Riggo, Joey T, Coach Gibbs are all the past, the present and future is winning through the air. By the way, New England plays in a cold weather area, how did their passing game fare the past few years? They've never been a running team and I think for the most part they did OK the past decade.

While Spurrier was a joke of a head coach, I'd bet as an offensive coordinator he'd be damn successful. Points are scored in the passing game in today's NFL. We've tried to get with the times but we've failed miserably at establishing franchise cornerstones at two positions, QB and #1 WR. Yes the lines are very important, but two teams with terrible OL this season were the Steelers and Cardinals. How did that work out for them? They have however elite QB and a legitimate #1 WR. You can get away with less than elite OL if you are elite at other positions. We're not elite anywhere, merely 'good' at a few spots.

I respectfully disagree. Yes your right the Eagles have dominated our division with a passing game over the past decade. On top of that the Cardinals and the Steelers are in the conference championships despite shaky o-line play. However all three of those teams have the most important asset in football. More important then a good head coach and quality coordinators, hell way more important then the O-line and the D-line combined. And thats elite QB play, if you have an elite QB you can do practically anything on offense. Wide Recievers don't mean anything without a QB, I mean just look at the Cardinals with Josh McCown or Matt Leinart and then again with Kurt Warner. The Lions tried to build with Recievers look how far that got them.

If you're trying to overacheive nothing will get you there faster then a Quarterback with 25+ TD and a 90+ QB Rating . In fact if you don't believe me then check out this article about how unimportant a true #1 reciever actually is. My favorite part being this:

SI.com - Writers - Reuben Frank: Big-time WRs don't win Super Bowls - Thursday January 17, 2008 6:07PM

"Of the last 14 Super Bowl teams, only four had a receiver with 1,200 or more yards -- and three of those teams lost: The 2001 Rams with Torry Holt, 2002 Raiders and Jerry Rice and the 2004 Eagles with Owens. The only exception was last year's Colts, the first team to win a Super Bowl with a big-time wide out since the Rams in 1999."

Now I'm not as into smash mouth football as you might think in fact I make as much fun of smash mouth football as I do air it out football, though it seems to be more of a slant against air it out here on the Warpath as it relates to me. However in building a team I feel that Smash Mouth football will win you more games. Still like any logical person I would like a balanced attack, though with a slight tilt towards the run considering how effective we were during the first half of the season.

Originally Posted by firstdown

Yea we saw that high flying O this year and Snyder stayed with Zorn so your argument does not hold up. Also last year we had several linemen we wanted that were gone by our pick.

That was after the fact. Zorn was originally brought in here to reshape the passing game. In fact in terms of offense it was the only thing he really changed that and maybe a few new formations. So that doesn't really hurt the argument I'm presenting that Snyder is an air-it-out junkie who dreams of a day where the paper reads something to the effect of "Snyder was right as Redskins get it done through the air". Plus if he gets rid of Zorn who is he going to hire? My guess is that keeping Zorn was a combination of a promise he made to Vinny, the fact that no one sexy enough was avaiable to justify firing an 8-8 first year coach, and lastly the possibility that admitting the month + long coaching search was a huge mistake.

As for looking at the lineman before the draft last year. Well to tell you the truth thats my last ray of hope for this front office and I'm holding onto that like my life depends on it. So yes your right they did look at Branden Albert, Chris Willimas, Duane Brown, as well as Sam Baker so I do see that as a plus. Yet the bottom line is they came away with three pass catchers at with three picks in the second round. On top of that they were willing to part with their first round pick to acquire Chad Johnson as well as Anquan Boldin. So I cede the floor to you, but I stand by my point that Snyder's attempt to acquire a passing game have cost this organization dearly. Either way this is fun I haven't had a debate this engaging in a while.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

I respectfully disagree. Yes your right the Eagles have dominated our division with a passing game over the past decade. On top of that the Cardinals and the Steelers are in the conference championships despite shaky o-line play. However all three of those teams have the most important asset in football. More important then a good head coach and quality coordinators, hell way more important then the O-line and the D-line combined. And thats elite QB play, if you have an elite QB you can do practically anything on offense. Wide Recievers don't mean anything without a QB, I mean just look at the Cardinals with Josh McCown or Matt Leinart and then again with Kurt Warner. The Lions tried to build with Recievers look how far that got them.

If you're trying to overacheive nothing will get you there faster then a Quarterback with 25+ TD and a 90+ QB Rating.

I'd respectfully disagree that we disagree. We agree that an elite QB solves many ills and can make a bad OL and mediocre WR into winners. Look at who's left standing in the playoffs. Outside of Fitzgerald, Boldin and Santonio Holmes there's not a WR out there that a GM would salivate over.

I think THE biggest mistake of the past 5 years was the Brunell trade, which by the way was all Gibbs. We could have had (at various times) Warner, Brees, Garcia, Pennington, Schaub to name a few and who knows what else may have materialized in the draft. Either way, we have consistently whiffed at getting a sure fire, elite QB. That above all coaching, coordinators and anything else has crippled our offense for the past 10 years.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'd respectfully disagree that we disagree. We agree that an elite QB solves many ills and can make a bad OL and mediocre WR into winners. Look at who's left standing in the playoffs. Outside of Fitzgerald, Boldin and Santonio Holmes there's not a WR out there that a GM would salivate over.

I think THE biggest mistake of the past 5 years was the Brunell trade, which by the way was all Gibbs. We could have had (at various times) Warner, Brees, Garcia, Pennington, Schaub to name a few and who knows what else may have materialized in the draft. Either way, we have consistently whiffed at getting a sure fire, elite QB. That above all coaching, coordinators and anything else has crippled our offense for the past 10 years.

You don't think someone would want Derrick Mason?

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'd respectfully disagree that we disagree. We agree that an elite QB solves many ills and can make a bad OL and mediocre WR into winners. Look at who's left standing in the playoffs. Outside of Fitzgerald, Boldin and Santonio Holmes there's not a WR out there that a GM would salivate over.

I think THE biggest mistake of the past 5 years was the Brunell trade, which by the way was all Gibbs. We could have had (at various times) Warner, Brees, Garcia, Pennington, Schaub to name a few and who knows what else may have materialized in the draft. Either way, we have consistently whiffed at getting a sure fire, elite QB. That above all coaching, coordinators and anything else has crippled our offense for the past 10 years.

Also keep in mind Gibbs always liked the older players that wouldn't make mental mistakes and cost the teams games. Even if the player was a mediocre player he found a way to have his team coach them up ie; Bugel. I don't know who his QB coach was during JG1 but if I remember correctly most of his QB's had a QB rating of like 70 something. Usually lower then all the other teams that made it into the play offs but some how Gibbs found a way to adjust his team to make take the win.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag

Hired Spurrier because he wanted a great passing game

Ok, but let's not forget that Spurrier was a highly sought after coach, it's not like only the Redskins were after him

Drafted Ramsey because he wanted a QB to run the passing game

Mistake for sure

At the very least, influenced Vinny to the point where the team grabbed three pass catchers in the second round

Are you just guessing here?

Brought in Zorn to run the West Coast Offense while keeping the running game

Don't understand what you're trying to say here

Hired Saunders in part because of his connection with the greatest show on turf. Of course his background with Gibbs helped to.

Of course, when he was hired. Everyone said "Finally, some modern help for old man Gibbs"

Was involved in the circle that brought in JC with a first round pick though this ones more on Gibbs in my mind

You got have a QB, jury still out though on whether the investment was worth it

Since he has owned the Redskins the team has acquired Taylor Jacobs, Cliff Russell, ARE, Brandon Lloyd, D. Thomas, M. Kelly, L. Coles, and S. Moss. I would add Rod Gardner to the list but that was Marty's call. To those of you counting at home thats 6 draft picks used on Recievers since 2002. In the meantime we have gone after Braylon Edwards (before the draft), Charles Rogers (before the draft), Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson (before the draft), Chad Johnson, A. Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, and Roy Williams. This team, this front office, is way to commited to finding recievers and as a result we've seen our front lines crumble. And with the recent success of the Arizona Cardinals I see Snyder grabing hold of an out to continue to try and build a passing game at the expense of the front lines.

I don't understand the point of mentioning only WRs we've allegedly gone after, while not mentioning linemen we've allegedly gone after

[Dirtbag59]

Ok, but let's not forget that Spurrier was a highly sought after coach, it's not like only the Redskins were after him

My main point in all of this was that the object of Snyders affection is a high flying passing attack. In citing the moves I'm trying to demonstrate that Snyder led teams will bend over backwards while ignoring needs elsewhere, namely the front lines, to bring in WR's, QB's, RB's, and TE's. Yes Spurrier was a highly sought after coach but he still fits the profile of Snyders Passing Fancy.

Are you just guessing here?

Yes, but in my defense I find it hard to believe that the three highest rated players available when the Redskins picked were Two Recievers and a Tight End. Especially after pimping our first round pick for a top tier reciever before the draft. It all goes back to my point that Snyder would rather loose with 300 yard passing games then win with a Marty Ball type offense.

You got have a QB, jury still out though on whether the investment was worth it

Agreed. But again more passing while getting less help up front.

I don't understand the point of mentioning only WRs we've allegedly gone after, while not mentioning linemen we've allegedly gone after

I'll get back to that after class but still a fair point.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

Ok, but let's not forget that Spurrier was a highly sought after coach, it's not like only the Redskins were after him

My main point in all of this was that the object of Snyders affection is a high flying passing attack. In citing the moves I'm trying to demonstrate that Snyder led teams will bend over backwards while ignoring needs elsewhere, namely the front lines, to bring in WR's, QB's, RB's, and TE's. Yes Spurrier was a highly sought after coach but he still fits the profile of Snyders Passing Fancy.

Are you just guessing here?

Yes, but in my defense I find it hard to believe that the three highest rated players available when the Redskins picked were Two Recievers and a Tight End. Especially after pimping our first round pick for a top tier reciever before the draft. It all goes back to my point that Snyder would rather loose with 300 yard passing games then win with a Marty Ball type offense.

You got have a QB, jury still out though on whether the investment was worth it

Agreed. But again more passing while getting less help up front.

I don't understand the point of mentioning only WRs we've allegedly gone after, while not mentioning linemen we've allegedly gone after

I'll get back to that after class but still a fair point.

Yea we saw that high flying O this year and Snyder stayed with Zorn so your argument does not hold up. Also last year we had several linemen we wanted that were gone by our pick.

[redsk1]

The real thing w/ me is that we should have a great organization if DS does the right things:

Getting a Football guy to run our front office

Getting a young talented football coach for our team that meshes w/ our new Gm

Lot's of money to spend frugally


The combination of wise decisions and the ability to spend some money should put us right at the top of the NFC East year in a year out.

[firstdown]

This is from the article. "Bill Cowher refused to work for Snyder for the same reason."
So when did Snyder interview Bill Cowher or was this just made up? Even if it is true Cowher has refused to coach any team until 2010 so the statement is still stupid.

[The Goat]

There's a forest through the trees view that is being ignored IMHO. It is debatable whether Snyder is the last say on GM duties i.e. whether he is truly responsible for the decade+ of mediocrity despite spending crazy money. As fans we can go rounds on this point from here to kingdom come and probably never agree to disagree...

What is nearly incontrovertable at this point in time is that very good coaches do not want to work for Snyder or the Redskins and to me this is what matters most. Spags will be a great coach somewhere, he didn't like what he saw in Snyder and for that Snyder acted like an insecure little child. My best intuition is that beyond Zorn we will not see a guy of character as HC for a very long time to come (even if Danny changed his stupid ways). Snyder deserves it. We don't.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by The Goat

There's a forest through the trees view that is being ignored IMHO. It is debatable whether Snyder is the last say on GM duties i.e. whether he is truly responsible for the decade+ of mediocrity despite spending crazy money. As fans we can go rounds on this point from here to kingdom come and probably never agree to disagree...

What is nearly incontrovertable at this point in time is that very good coaches do not want to work for Snyder or the Redskins and to me this is what matters most. Spags will be a great coach somewhere, he didn't like what he saw in Snyder and for that Snyder acted like an insecure little child. My best intuition is that beyond Zorn we will not see a guy of character as HC for a very long time to come (even if Danny changed his stupid ways). Snyder deserves it. We don't.

Spags has already been passed up a couple of times for head coaching jobs this offseason, and he probably will be passed up a few more times.

He may be a good head coach one day, but let's not go crowning him before he's earned anything. As a head coach, he has done nothing, I'll repeat NOTHING, that Zorn hasn't already.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Spags has already been passed up a couple of times for head coaching jobs this offseason, and he probably will be passed up a few more times.

He may be a good head coach one day, but let's not go crowning him before he's earned anything. As a head coach, he has done nothing, I'll repeat NOTHING, that Zorn hasn't already.

good point

[The Goat]

... also one could rehash the whole GD travesty surrounding Gregg Williams... I've beat that horse dead a few times already and won't repeat my same old blatherings but it is still significant IMO (if for no other reason that Williams is extremely well respected around the league and it's obvious to all but a few he was smeared by Snyder and/or his people). I mean really, does anyone think the great coaches should have any respect for Snyder or want to give him a chance?