6 WEEKS AGO: Trade Ramsey, Bench/trade Gardner

Redskins_P · 09-20-2004, 02:42 PM

I love it. All very good points That Guy.

Hogskin · 09-20-2004, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

All I'm saying is these guys had a chance to develop, and I dont think Ramsey is being granted the same thing by us. Bottom line. I didnt call you a hypocrite (looked up the spelling on that one), I'm just saying that its werid that anyone can say that we dont know what potential Hasslebeck has, when Ramsey is in the same boat. Ramsey is clearly a better quarterback than Tim, and I just dont understand why people will stick up for him, just on the sole fact of throwing Ramsey to the wolves. No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it. However, there have been quite a handful that have said that he should be the one to get the shot. Ramsey played 1 and 3/4 quarters yesterday, and people want to trade him based on that. Forget the fact he had the ball moving, forget the fact that two of those int's werent fully his fault ( the thrid one is inexcusable). We just want to get on his ass, for the sole pourpose of doing that. Again, I'm not trying to personally attack you or anything, you're one of my fav. posters and we ussually agree, but I wholeheartly 100% respectfully disagree with some of the posts people have made.

Very good post, Gman - I appreciate your diplomacy. The only thing I would point out again is that I am not basing my posts on yesterday's game. These are the exact same things I was saying here (many times) during the offseason and preseason. All yesterday did was give yet one more confirmation of what I have been saying about BOTH players. They have been very consistent for a very long time. Two calendar years IS long enough to at least see SOME improvement in major fundamental flaws.

SUNRA · 09-20-2004, 02:47 PM

You don't understand why people including myself will stick up for Hasselbeck is really shocking. Hasselbeck is paid to come in and clean up what the other two QB's cannot due to injury or mistakes. I don't care who we win with. Some of you are so absorbed in this guy that you would rather lose with him rather than win with a QB who is not as good as him. That's ignorance to the highest degree. Gmanc711 some of us were calling for Ramsey's head last year. He was not ready for the NFL last year and the same is clearly apparent today. This one game is not the reason I am burning my bridge, it goes back to the 2003 season. Our record was 5-11. Spurrier's fault right.

If Hasselbeck is not in the league with Ramsey, then Ramsey couldn't hold Joey Harrington's chinstrap. A Harrington is what we want. Not Bledsoe.

That Guy · 09-20-2004, 02:49 PM

Quote:

I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?

he beat a giants team that had already quit and was well into a 0-8 finish to a 4-4 start that season.

in int/game, int/pass, TD/pass, td/game, win/game, PR beats TH... i think the depth chart is right... that doesn't mean PR is manning, but saying he's washed up is dumb.

Hogskin · 09-20-2004, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

but saying he's washed up is dumb.

Well, I said the same thing about Norman Snead, Desmond Howard, and Heath Shuler at this point in THEIR careers, too. I guess I was DUMB then, too. What you just don't get, is that it has nothing to do with wins and losses. It has to do with basic fundamentals that are seriously wrong, that he can not make any improvement on in 2 years. All of these guys had issues they made NO progress on in their first couple seasons. When that happens, guys, it just "ain't gonna get no better..."

cpayne5 · 09-20-2004, 03:08 PM

He hasn't had a chance in real games to improve!

There's only so much improvement you can do in practice. Some parts of football you learn only by playing in games.

SmootSmack · 09-20-2004, 03:15 PM

I don't think Hasselbeck is a clear cut better choice than Ramsey. But I think there is cause for concern with Ramsey. I'm not even going to consider the interceptions. As already mentioned, one of them was a miscommunication anyway.

But it is worrisome that Ramsey still doesn't seem to have pocket presence. And it's still aggravating how he keeps telegraphing his passes. Everyone knows exactly where he's going. In baseball, they talk about the difference between being a pitcher and a thrower. I think the same holds true in football. Ramsey can throw the ball but he's not a true quarterback yet-pocket presence, check off receivers. You'd like to think that by now he'd have improved in those categories but he hasn't.

SkinsRock · 09-20-2004, 03:32 PM

Everyone needs to remember that Ramsey was taught by Spurrier to completely change the way he throws the ball and the way he reads a defense...and now to change it again. Plus, until now, he has never been in a real NFL system. Give the guy a little slack. Yeah, the INT's we're horrible, and he has bad habits that are being worked on, but give him a little time and he'll be fine. One positive I noticed was that his foot appears to be healed...he did seem to move around better. That said, if healthy, Brunell needs to stay as the starter. I was one of the ones pulling for Patrick to win the job, but it is clear that he isn't quite ready yet. If Brunell is hurt, he is still our best option though...I like Hasselbeck, but he is an average back-up at best (great for a #3 QB).

Defensewins · 09-20-2004, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

..... No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it......

This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things.
The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB.
Look at New England for example. Drew Bledsoe, the first overall pick in the 1993 Draft. He has been to been to a couple superbowls and been elected to a couple of probowls. His arm strength is unquestionable.
Drew is struggling and gets hurt. In comes Tom Brady, a sixth round draft pick (last round) that was not even a starter in college until his senior year. Tom Brady does not have a strong arm like Bledsoe. But he is a smart football player and QB. Brady excels at reading defense's and making good/quick decsions (frequently compared to Montana).
Even after Brady helped New England win their 1st superbowl there was still half the patriots fans that wanted Bledsoe to start again because he is a better athlete and has a stronger arm. I think some of you might falling into this mind set. Bledsoe is now with Buffalo and still holds on to the ball to long. Brady won yet another super bowl.

bedlamVR · 09-20-2004, 03:44 PM

Don't give up on Ramsey just yet he needs to relax. He is always going out there with the world on his shoulders he is so pent up trying to win a game and not make any mistakes that is exactly what he does. Compare him now to his first games two years ago and his poise and cold blood decision making has gone because for the last two years he has been hearing footsteps.

Maybe he will never recover but he needs to be remined that Football is supposed to be fun and not just painful. We give up on him now and he will be the next Trent Green.

All he has to do is do his best and no more. Trying to over reach is getting him into the trouble we are seeing. Besides this seems a rediculous thread after one game. Those calling for Tim now may be reminded he has only been in football one year thow him to the lions before he is ready then you may ruin another talent.

If there is a new QB next year it is going to be someone on the roster hell Tom Tupa might be in with a shot... who knows

SmootSmack · 09-20-2004, 04:08 PM

Hey maybe we can get Matt Hasselbeck next year. I can't see Seattle being able to keep Matt, Shaun Alexander and Walter Jones (all who are due for new contracts)

I'm only joking about getting Matt........sort of

Seriously though, I don't think we should give up on Ramsey quite yet nor I do think Brunell is done

I really hope Kenyatta Jones is ok though

Riggo44 · 09-20-2004, 05:15 PM

I hope all you PR haters out there stay of the band wagon when the kid start's to come around. And trust me he will.

memphisskin · 09-20-2004, 05:20 PM

[QUOTE=Defensewins]This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things.
The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB.
Look at New England for example. QUOTE]

I feel you on the Bledsoe/Ramsey comparison, but Bledsoe was a 7th year vet. You knew what you were getting with him. I've seen at least five different incarnations of Ramsey, I don't think anyone could peg down his style of play, unless you say it's "confused". And anytime anyone wants to bring up the Hasselbeck as a starter routine, I bring up last year's Dallas game in which he spotted Terrence Newman running free three times.

Should Hasselbeck get a shot? Unless the top two guys get hurt, I don't see how. You've got one qb who we just signed to a $43 million dollar deal. At second string you've got a 3rd year guy who was a former #1 pick. I think 2 games is an awfully short leash to start pulling for the #3 guy. If Brunell and Ramsey were singlehandedly holding the team back, maybe. But the problem yesterday was the entire offense. Wideouts dropped routine passes, Portis fumbles twice after fumbling 3 times all of last season, blocking assignments were blown (one of which on the last play of the game with only three rushers).

SmootSmack · 09-20-2004, 05:21 PM

I'm not going to speak for Hogskins (or anyone else who has conerns about Ramsey) here but I think you can be critical of Ramsey and still be loyal, and not a PR-hater.

I'm rooting for Ramsey to do well. Not just because he's a Redskin but because I believe he has the ability to do really well in this league. Still, he has flaws in his game that can't just be overlooked. I think it's all mental really

That being said, Sunday's loss-as others have repeatedly said already-cannot be pinned entirely on Ramsey. Everyone is to blame

jrocx69 · 09-20-2004, 05:30 PM

ive seen some iditotic statements on here.... but no need to argue. to all those who say Pat is done or washed up or needs to be traded.... what kind of loyal fans are you? How much do you understand football? If any of you all didnt notice, if gardner catches that TD pass and we got the portis TD, 1 int would not have been thrown, and another TD would be on the board making him 2TD and 2 ints. and why make critical remarks towards ramsey when the coaching staff is the one that called the play for coles to be hit on a fade route????? we have mccants, we have gardner, and we choose short and speedy WR over Possession WR in the RED ZONE???? that falls on the playcalling. Red zone passes calls for Cooley, Gardner, and Mccants all day. why was the play called for coles?... i dunno, not ALL ramseys fault on that. Im questioning some of yalls supposive faith as a REDSKINS fan.

09-20-2004, 02:47 PM	#63
SUNRA The Starter Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,680	You don't understand why people including myself will stick up for Hasselbeck is really shocking. Hasselbeck is paid to come in and clean up what the other two QB's cannot due to injury or mistakes. I don't care who we win with. Some of you are so absorbed in this guy that you would rather lose with him rather than win with a QB who is not as good as him. That's ignorance to the highest degree. Gmanc711 some of us were calling for Ramsey's head last year. He was not ready for the NFL last year and the same is clearly apparent today. This one game is not the reason I am burning my bridge, it goes back to the 2003 season. Our record was 5-11. Spurrier's fault right. If Hasselbeck is not in the league with Ramsey, then Ramsey couldn't hold Joey Harrington's chinstrap. A Harrington is what we want. Not Bledsoe. __________________ Redskins Member since 1970

09-20-2004, 03:08 PM	#66
cpayne5 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,807	He hasn't had a chance in real games to improve! There's only so much improvement you can do in practice. Some parts of football you learn only by playing in games. __________________ "It's not about what you've done, but what's been done for you."

09-20-2004, 03:15 PM	#67
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	I don't think Hasselbeck is a clear cut better choice than Ramsey. But I think there is cause for concern with Ramsey. I'm not even going to consider the interceptions. As already mentioned, one of them was a miscommunication anyway. But it is worrisome that Ramsey still doesn't seem to have pocket presence. And it's still aggravating how he keeps telegraphing his passes. Everyone knows exactly where he's going. In baseball, they talk about the difference between being a pitcher and a thrower. I think the same holds true in football. Ramsey can throw the ball but he's not a true quarterback yet-pocket presence, check off receivers. You'd like to think that by now he'd have improved in those categories but he hasn't. __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

09-20-2004, 04:08 PM	#71
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	Hey maybe we can get Matt Hasselbeck next year. I can't see Seattle being able to keep Matt, Shaun Alexander and Walter Jones (all who are due for new contracts) I'm only joking about getting Matt........sort of Seriously though, I don't think we should give up on Ramsey quite yet nor I do think Brunell is done I really hope Kenyatta Jones is ok though __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

09-20-2004, 05:15 PM	#72
Riggo44 The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Clemente CA Age: 51 Posts: 2,390	I hope all you PR haters out there stay of the band wagon when the kid start's to come around. And trust me he will. __________________ Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Benjamin Franklin

09-20-2004, 02:42 PM	#61
Redskins_P Fight for old DC! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Aldie, VA Age: 46 Posts: 4,101	I love it. All very good points That Guy.

09-20-2004, 03:32 PM	#68
SkinsRock Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Crofton, MD Age: 55 Posts: 907	Everyone needs to remember that Ramsey was taught by Spurrier to completely change the way he throws the ball and the way he reads a defense...and now to change it again. Plus, until now, he has never been in a real NFL system. Give the guy a little slack. Yeah, the INT's we're horrible, and he has bad habits that are being worked on, but give him a little time and he'll be fine. One positive I noticed was that his foot appears to be healed...he did seem to move around better. That said, if healthy, Brunell needs to stay as the starter. I was one of the ones pulling for Patrick to win the job, but it is clear that he isn't quite ready yet. If Brunell is hurt, he is still our best option though...I like Hasselbeck, but he is an average back-up at best (great for a #3 QB).

09-20-2004, 03:44 PM	#70
bedlamVR Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 389	Don't give up on Ramsey just yet he needs to relax. He is always going out there with the world on his shoulders he is so pent up trying to win a game and not make any mistakes that is exactly what he does. Compare him now to his first games two years ago and his poise and cold blood decision making has gone because for the last two years he has been hearing footsteps. Maybe he will never recover but he needs to be remined that Football is supposed to be fun and not just painful. We give up on him now and he will be the next Trent Green. All he has to do is do his best and no more. Trying to over reach is getting him into the trouble we are seeing. Besides this seems a rediculous thread after one game. Those calling for Tim now may be reminded he has only been in football one year thow him to the lions before he is ready then you may ruin another talent. If there is a new QB next year it is going to be someone on the roster hell Tom Tupa might be in with a shot... who knows

09-20-2004, 05:20 PM	#73
memphisskin Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Nashville, TN Age: 53 Posts: 960	[QUOTE=Defensewins]This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things. The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB. Look at New England for example. QUOTE] I feel you on the Bledsoe/Ramsey comparison, but Bledsoe was a 7th year vet. You knew what you were getting with him. I've seen at least five different incarnations of Ramsey, I don't think anyone could peg down his style of play, unless you say it's "confused". And anytime anyone wants to bring up the Hasselbeck as a starter routine, I bring up last year's Dallas game in which he spotted Terrence Newman running free three times. Should Hasselbeck get a shot? Unless the top two guys get hurt, I don't see how. You've got one qb who we just signed to a $43 million dollar deal. At second string you've got a 3rd year guy who was a former #1 pick. I think 2 games is an awfully short leash to start pulling for the #3 guy. If Brunell and Ramsey were singlehandedly holding the team back, maybe. But the problem yesterday was the entire offense. Wideouts dropped routine passes, Portis fumbles twice after fumbling 3 times all of last season, blocking assignments were blown (one of which on the last play of the game with only three rushers).

09-20-2004, 05:21 PM	#74
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	I'm not going to speak for Hogskins (or anyone else who has conerns about Ramsey) here but I think you can be critical of Ramsey and still be loyal, and not a PR-hater. I'm rooting for Ramsey to do well. Not just because he's a Redskin but because I believe he has the ability to do really well in this league. Still, he has flaws in his game that can't just be overlooked. I think it's all mental really That being said, Sunday's loss-as others have repeatedly said already-cannot be pinned entirely on Ramsey. Everyone is to blame __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

09-20-2004, 05:30 PM	#75
jrocx69 Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas Age: 43 Posts: 461	ive seen some iditotic statements on here.... but no need to argue. to all those who say Pat is done or washed up or needs to be traded.... what kind of loyal fans are you? How much do you understand football? If any of you all didnt notice, if gardner catches that TD pass and we got the portis TD, 1 int would not have been thrown, and another TD would be on the board making him 2TD and 2 ints. and why make critical remarks towards ramsey when the coaching staff is the one that called the play for coles to be hit on a fade route????? we have mccants, we have gardner, and we choose short and speedy WR over Possession WR in the RED ZONE???? that falls on the playcalling. Red zone passes calls for Cooley, Gardner, and Mccants all day. why was the play called for coles?... i dunno, not ALL ramseys fault on that. Im questioning some of yalls supposive faith as a REDSKINS fan.

6 WEEKS AGO: Trade Ramsey, Bench/trade Gardner

Locker Room Main Forum