It's Talent, Not Coaching.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Maybe... but I'm pretty sure we would still be 5-7.

We have two brilliant offensive minds on the offensive side, but that hasn't helped.

Our problem is talent.

My problem is not the 5-7 record, after all we were crap last season, especially on offense. My problem is our defense is not improving and is getting worse.
I will gladly concede 100% that the problem on offense is talent, especially on the O-line, RB and Wr. I have no problem with the Shanahan's when it comes to coaching the offense.
On defense, we have enough talent to be .500 team and our defense should play and be ranked in the middle to upper half of the NFL, not the bottom.
Hasslett is not getting everything he can from this defense.
We can agree to disagree.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

My problem is not the 5-7 record, after all we were crap last season, especially on offense. My problem is our defense is not improving and is getting worse.
I will gladly concede 100% that the problem on offense is talent, especially on the O-line, RB and Wr. I have no problem with the Shanahan's when it comes to coaching the offense.
On defense, we have enough talent to be .500 team and our defense should play and be ranked in the middle to upper half of the NFL, not the bottom.
Hasslett is not getting everything he can from this defense.
We can agree to disagree.

Well when the D is crap from the start and then you loose a few starters then it gets even crapper. They might not have been a great D but they where the starters for a reason.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Well when the D is crap from the start and then you loose a few starters then it gets even crapper. They might not have been a great D but they where the starters for a reason.

You are talking about the 10th ranked defense from 2009 that Haslett inherited? Crap? No. Average..yes.
They did not get crappy until Hasslett rode into town.
The coaches selected the starters. See where I am going?
Coaches also decided to sit their best interior defensive lineman to prove a point and they are still pushing AH's head in the shit this late in the season rather than trying to make peace.
Coaches decided to stick with Andre Carter as a starter inot the 3rd or 4th week of the season when they clearly saw in all of preseason he was not going to cut it at OLB in the 3-4.
Moved an OLB (Rocky) inside.
Just once, can I see Rocky moved back to OLB and move Lorenzo Alexander moved inside where Alexander's size and strength might slow down some of those long runs right up the gut of our defense? If not, why not? Because of our coach says so? Hhmmm?
But then again you guys say it is definitely not the coaches.

[Texanskin]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Gentlemen,
Bottom line...talent or coaching..chicken or the egg...or both.
I can not help but feel that if we had brought in a real stud defensive coordinator like a GWilliams or a Rex Ryan in last summer instead of Hasslets we would not be LAST in the NFL in defense ranking. You agree?
As you can tell from the day they announced his hiring, I have never been a Hasslett fan.
We are a premiere franchise in the NFL, we can do better than Hasslett.
Just saying.

According to who???? Market Value doesnt = Wins. We have sucked for so long that other teams in the NFL look at us like we look at cleveland (and really....who are WE to look down on ANYONE). Do we have Superbowls....yes. What have they done for us lately....or matter of fact...in the last 15 years!!!

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Texanskin

According to who???? Market Value doesnt = Wins. We have sucked for so long that other teams in the NFL look at us like we look at cleveland (and really....who are WE to look down on ANYONE). Do we have Superbowls....yes. What have they done for us lately....or matter of fact...in the last 15 years!!!

We have the money to hire top coaches. We fired Gregg Williams and he went on to win a Superbowl last year. we hired Jim Zorn! Wow! Thanks Vinny.

[Coff]

Originally Posted by Texanskin

According to who???? Market Value doesnt = Wins. We have sucked for so long that other teams in the NFL look at us like we look at cleveland (and really....who are WE to look down on ANYONE). Do we have Superbowls....yes. What have they done for us lately....or matter of fact...in the last 15 years!!!

Yeah, but wins alone doesn't make a team a premiere team necessarily. It's a very subjective matter, but I think the point that Defensewins was trying to make is that we are historic and relevant franchise, regardless of whether or not we win or lose. There's a reason that this franchise is one of the most valuable sports franchises on the planet; and that's what makes it premiere.

[Beemnseven]

And it just isn't possible that many of the guys who performed well last year are aging, having a down year, maybe lost a step or two and were bound to begin a decline at some point anyway. Impossible, right?

Matty said it earlier -- outside of Brian Orakpo and perhaps Lorenzo Alexander, who else among the front seven gives us much hope long term? Who?

Andre Carter? -- he's had an up and down career
Philip Daniels? -- seriously, how the guy has lasted this long is miraculous
Kedric Golston? -- showed promise early, had been going downhill (even in the 4-3)
Adam Carriker? -- ho-hum
Ma'ake Kemoeatu? -- total bust, but what did we expect?
London Fletcher? -- complete stud, but only a year or two left
Chris Wilson? -- situational pass rusher, basically non-existent
H.B. Blades? -- special teamer, nothing more
Rocky McIntosh? -- Our top pick in '06; traded down to grab him, giving away a 2nd the following year, and what do we really have with this guy?

Then there's Vonnie Holliday and Anthony Bryant. Yikes.

And among these guys, there are still those who say that all we have to do is line them up differently and all will be right with the world? Please.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

And it just isn't possible that many of the guys who performed well last year are aging, having a down year, maybe lost a step or two and were bound to begin a decline at some point anyway. Impossible, right?

Matty said it earlier -- outside of Brian Orakpo and perhaps Lorenzo Alexander, who else among the front seven gives us much hope long term? Who?

Andre Carter? -- he's had an up and down career
Philip Daniels? -- seriously, how the guy has lasted this long is miraculous
Kedric Golston? -- showed promise early, had been going downhill (even in the 4-3)
Adam Carriker? -- ho-hum
Ma'ake Kemoeatu? -- total bust, but what did we expect?
London Fletcher? -- complete stud, but only a year or two left
Chris Wilson? -- situational pass rusher, basically non-existent
H.B. Blades? -- special teamer, nothing more
Rocky McIntosh? -- Our top pick in '06; traded down to grab him, giving away a 2nd the following year, and what do we really have with this guy?

Then there's Vonnie Holliday and Anthony Bryant. Yikes.

And among these guys, there are still those who say that all we have to do is line them up differently and all will be right with the world? Please.

Conveniently ignoring the already-cited fact that Buffalo is performing far better now that they've ditched the 3-4. BTW, that supposedly horrid Bills D only coughed up 20.4 per game(slightly better than us) despite being prone to absolute dud games.

You're confusing long term potential with short-term performance. Just because guys like Fletch isn't going to be giving much years down the road doesn't mean that they can't play now. Also, some of the moves would have never even be considered if the 3-4 switch did not happen. Kemo, Bryant, Carriker, and Holliday would not even be here. We would have been debating which 4-3 SOLB candidates to grab in the draft or FA this past offseason.

Carriker is the only one who fits the 3-4 to a T and is proven to have failed in a 4-3.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Conveniently ignoring the already-cited fact that Buffalo is performing far better now that they've ditched the 3-4. BTW, that supposedly horrid Bills D only coughed up 20.4 per game(slightly better than us) despite being prone to absolute dud games.

You're confusing long term potential with short-term performance. Just because guys like Fletch isn't going to be giving much years down the road doesn't mean that they can't play now. Also, some of the moves would have never even be considered if the 3-4 switch did not happen. Kemo, Bryant, Carriker, and Holliday would not even be here. We would have been debating which 4-3 SOLB candidates to grab in the draft or FA this past offseason.

Carriker is the only one who fits the 3-4 to a T and is proven to have failed in a 4-3.

I must have forgotten the rule which states that whatever works for the Buffalo Bills will naturally work for the Redskins.

What on earth are you watching that leads you to believe these guys can play effectively now after what we've seen all year? What were you doing this Sunday at 1pm? Did you actually watch the game?

Also, some of the moves would have never even be considered if the 3-4 switch did not happen. Kemo, Bryant, Carriker, and Holliday would not even be here. We would have been debating which 4-3 SOLB candidates to grab in the draft or FA this past offseason.

And which players from last year would be giving us All-Pro performances if only they had stayed in a 4-3? Golston and Haynesworth? Andre Carter, Rocky McIntosh, -- oh yeah, we'd be a "top ten defense" at this very moment if Shanny hadn't come along and screwed everything up, right?

It's also a fact that they are still using the 4-3. Which is why it's a fact that if Haslett had never been hired, and if the same scheme had been carried over from last year, we'd be in exactly the same horrific situation.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I must have forgotten the rule which states that whatever works for the Buffalo Bills will naturally work for the Redskins.

What on earth are you watching that leads you to believe these guys can play effectively now after what we've seen all year? What were you doing this Sunday at 1pm? Did you actually watch the game?



And which players from last year would be giving us All-Pro performances if only they had stayed in a 4-3? Golston and Haynesworth? Andre Carter, Rocky McIntosh, -- oh yeah, we'd be a "top ten defense" at this very moment if Shanny hadn't come along and screwed everything up, right?

It's also a fact that they are still using the 4-3. Which is why it's a fact that if Haslett had never been hired, and if the same scheme had been carried over from last year, we'd be in exactly the same horrific situation.

Yeah, because Football Outsider's stats are just as bad as regular ones.

They're still using a 4-3? They may be using fronts with 4 men with the nickel package, but they never ever have use 4 down linemen. And you think someone else is going to be exactly the same as Blache scheme-wise?

It's common knowledge that the 3-4 needs a NT to work. The NT has a very specific role that 4-3 DTs do not perform. Our NTs sucking makes EVERYONE ELSE look worse because the 3-4 is that dependent on having NT. You seem to suffer from perceiving everyone is sucking worse than they actually are precisely because of this.

[SmootSmack]

The Bills didn't ditch the 3-4. They just have some more 4-3 sets because of injuries. But they're still basically a 3-4

[GusFrerotte]

Can't totally let Shanny off the hook. The lunacy surrounding the McNabb incident is enough to have doubts about this guy. Not saying he isn't a good coach, but he isn't infallible. Remember, this guy hasn't won squat since Elway retired, and he had loads of talent in Denver since then, in the weakest division in the NFL no doubt.