Problems with the Defense, IMHO

#56fanatic · 11-22-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I wonder if we miss Noble at all. Either way we definitely need to get some pass rushers in there. I sort of liked it against the Niners when we went with the 3-4. In fact has Holdman even been on the field these past couple of weeks?

I actually would like to see back in the 3-4 defense. With Griffin out, the quality of the back up to not compare to the LB quality if we ran a 3-4. We probably could generate a little bit more of a pass rush, and still be effective against the run. Holdman has not seen the field since "the benching". I think we go with Daniels, BIG JOE, and wynn with LaVar, Marshall, McCune,and washington. Even some downs we can move taylor up and play an extra corner. There seems to be more versatility with the 3-4 given our lack of depth at D-line.

MTK · 11-22-2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I wonder if we miss Noble at all. Either way we definitely need to get some pass rushers in there. I sort of liked it against the Niners when we went with the 3-4. In fact has Holdman even been on the field these past couple of weeks?

I think we definitely miss Noble, especially with the injury to Griffin and taking in to account big Joe has been playing hurt and isn't close to 100%.

Southpaw · 11-22-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I think we definitely miss Noble, especially with the injury to Griffin and taking in to account big Joe has been playing hurt and isn't close to 100%.

The only thing they're missing from Noble is a body to put in the defensive tackle position. I know people like to use the "space eater" defense in regards to him, but even space eaters manage to get about 30-40 tackles in a season. Noble started all 16 games last season and made 14 tackles and one sack. If they're missing him at all, it certainly isn't for his production on the field.

#56fanatic · 11-22-2005, 09:48 AM

I believe Noble is a servicable tackle at best. We really haven't seen what he can do on the field since he has been hurt pretty much the whole time he has been here. So to say we miss him, I really can't say. Griffin is the one that is obviously missed. I hope he can get on the field soon, because with out him our ends have no chance at getting any kind of pressure, which we have seen the last four games. I do believe we should go to the 3-4 given our lack of depth at tackle and more importantly I think we are more athletic in that allignment. Its harder to defend and can confuse QB on who is coming on the blitz. I think we would still be decent against the run and would be able to defend the pass a bit better than we are. In that allignment we could also move Tayloy up at the 4th LB in certain packages and confuse O lineman more my either sending him on the blitz or dropping him back in coverage. He is a playmaker, as Lavar and Washington are, and I think we need to put him in position to make plays.

MTK · 11-22-2005, 10:18 AM

I'm not saying Noble is a superstar, but he's certainly better than Boschetti and we miss the depth at DT we had last year.

TheMalcolmConnection · 11-22-2005, 10:23 AM

Did Noble say he was retiring? I know he's coaching now, but we placed on IR I believe.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-22-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

I actually would like to see back in the 3-4 defense. With Griffin out, the quality of the back up to not compare to the LB quality if we ran a 3-4. We probably could generate a little bit more of a pass rush, and still be effective against the run. Holdman has not seen the field since "the benching". I think we go with Daniels, BIG JOE, and wynn with LaVar, Marshall, McCune,and washington. Even some downs we can move taylor up and play an extra corner. There seems to be more versatility with the 3-4 given our lack of depth at D-line.

With the exception of the 49ers game, I haven't seen us really play the 3-4 this year.

Beemnseven · 11-22-2005, 11:27 PM

You know, even with Griffin out, the run defense has been pretty stout the last three weeks.

As for Carlos Rogers, I won't call him a 'bust' either, but I must admit that I expected him to take over the starting corner position over Walt Harris at this point. I know every player is different, and the situations may not be the same, but Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, and Sean Taylor all contributed more to the team in their rookie seasons than Carlos Rogers has so far.

If he's truly injured, that's one thing. But if by season's end he hasn't supplanted Walt Harris as the starting corner, I think it's perfectly fair to say that Rogers will have had a disappointing rookie season.

That Guy · 11-26-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I know someone will argue that we played well defensively today; that we only gave up 16 points and stood strong at the end of the game. And that's true. But this is the third straight game where our defense had the whole field to stop our opponent with the game on the line and couldn't do it (I'm counting the end of the Eagles game because of the ease with which they got in scoring position, even though we stopped them in the redzone). I'm not trying to beat up on our defense. I love their heart and character, and admire the success they have had as a unit. I'm just suggesting that maybe we need to reevaluate how good we really are.

16 points against an offensive team and they scored 7, so its really 9 points...
we've had corner injuries, safety injuries and griffin's been out. Our problem is lack of depth, no pass rush, and for the start of the year, a crappy starting LB (holdman)... washington, pierce, marshall was much better than holdman, marshall, washington... hopefully we're alright at LB now though (but again, no depth). last year our D was injury free for the most part and smoot and pierce are both better than the guys that replaced them right now.

we don't suck, we're still top 10, but most people expected a dropoff with a rookie, a new bargain basement starter (holdman, bleh) and a player switching position.

That Guy · 11-26-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

We probably won't be laughing at the Rogers pick at this time next year, though I guess that's not soon enough for the people who are already convinced he's a bust.

You can't address every single need each year, if only it were that easy.

GW needs to regroup this offseason with this schemes and most definitely his personnel. Stuff that worked last year isn't working this year, and we've had some key injuries.

Maybe next year we can finally get the offense and defense on the same page.

corners were plentiful and cheap in FA, DEs weren't... rolle, dyson, henry, surtain, baxter, and ty law among others...

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-26-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

corners were plentiful and cheap in FA, DEs weren't... rolle, dyson, henry, surtain, baxter, and ty law among others...

A lot of those corners didn't come cheap and/or came with baggage (i.e. Ty Law's injury). Plus, a problem with drafting dlinemen is they don't develop quickly and they are so hit or miss. So, I think it's a little early to say we shouldn't have drafted Rogers. Let's give him a little more than one season to prove his worth.

SmootSmack · 11-26-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

corners were plentiful and cheap in FA, DEs weren't... rolle, dyson, henry, surtain, baxter, and ty law among others...

corners may have been plentiful but I don't know about cheap

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-26-2005, 10:29 PM

A HUGE problem with our organization is that it is extremely impatient. It wants to win now. That sort of attitude hasn't won us many rings, or even a single winning season.

We don't give anyone (save Brunell) a chance to develop. Let's try to give Rogers the time to develop that we never gave Ramsey.

That Guy · 11-27-2005, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

corners may have been plentiful but I don't know about cheap

baxter and rolle got deals close to springs i believe (with less bonus money), henry got 21 over 5 (too much), dyson 17 over 5 and rogers 11 over 5... dyson is a much better deal right now and he'd let you pick up a non corner in the draft... the team was willing to pay 30mill to smoot, and that 30mill would buy any of those 4 and they'd have an immediate impact.

And yeah, law came with baggage, but he also came VERY cheap for his skill level, which when 100% can be top 3-5.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-27-2005, 12:55 AM

We couldn't afford to give Baxter or Rolle the deals that Springs got. We could get two Rogers for every one Baxter or Rolle. Dyson is a decent corner, but Rogers, who is physical, fits Williams' system much better and should be a much better corner. As you pointed out, Henry got overpaid and he's aging. As for Smoot, we were willing to pay $30 million for him, but it was backloaded and so Smoot went to the Vikings (who were willing to frontload the deal). As for Law, he was injured and no one knew whether he would return to his old form. Plus, Law is very old; hence, his low salary.

In my opinion, I don't know how we can critique a move that just took place. We can make guesses as to how it will all play out, but ultimately we need to look at the move 2 years from now when the dust has settled.

11-22-2005, 09:48 AM	#64
#56fanatic The Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Charlotte NC Age: 51 Posts: 1,801	Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO I believe Noble is a servicable tackle at best. We really haven't seen what he can do on the field since he has been hurt pretty much the whole time he has been here. So to say we miss him, I really can't say. Griffin is the one that is obviously missed. I hope he can get on the field soon, because with out him our ends have no chance at getting any kind of pressure, which we have seen the last four games. I do believe we should go to the 3-4 given our lack of depth at tackle and more importantly I think we are more athletic in that allignment. Its harder to defend and can confuse QB on who is coming on the blitz. I think we would still be decent against the run and would be able to defend the pass a bit better than we are. In that allignment we could also move Tayloy up at the 4th LB in certain packages and confuse O lineman more my either sending him on the blitz or dropping him back in coverage. He is a playmaker, as Lavar and Washington are, and I think we need to put him in position to make plays.

11-22-2005, 10:18 AM	#65
MTK Hail Raiser Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 53 Posts: 100,049	Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO I'm not saying Noble is a superstar, but he's certainly better than Boschetti and we miss the depth at DT we had last year.

11-22-2005, 10:23 AM	#66
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Charlottesville, Virginia Age: 44 Posts: 19,264	Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO Did Noble say he was retiring? I know he's coaching now, but we placed on IR I believe. __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

11-22-2005, 11:27 PM	#68
Beemnseven Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 52 Posts: 5,311	Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO You know, even with Griffin out, the run defense has been pretty stout the last three weeks. As for Carlos Rogers, I won't call him a 'bust' either, but I must admit that I expected him to take over the starting corner position over Walt Harris at this point. I know every player is different, and the situations may not be the same, but Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, and Sean Taylor all contributed more to the team in their rookie seasons than Carlos Rogers has so far. If he's truly injured, that's one thing. But if by season's end he hasn't supplanted Walt Harris as the starting corner, I think it's perfectly fair to say that Rogers will have had a disappointing rookie season.

11-26-2005, 10:29 PM	#73
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 47 Posts: 8,317	Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO A HUGE problem with our organization is that it is extremely impatient. It wants to win now. That sort of attitude hasn't won us many rings, or even a single winning season. We don't give anyone (save Brunell) a chance to develop. Let's try to give Rogers the time to develop that we never gave Ramsey.

11-27-2005, 12:55 AM	#75
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 47 Posts: 8,317	Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO We couldn't afford to give Baxter or Rolle the deals that Springs got. We could get two Rogers for every one Baxter or Rolle. Dyson is a decent corner, but Rogers, who is physical, fits Williams' system much better and should be a much better corner. As you pointed out, Henry got overpaid and he's aging. As for Smoot, we were willing to pay $30 million for him, but it was backloaded and so Smoot went to the Vikings (who were willing to frontload the deal). As for Law, he was injured and no one knew whether he would return to his old form. Plus, Law is very old; hence, his low salary. In my opinion, I don't know how we can critique a move that just took place. We can make guesses as to how it will all play out, but ultimately we need to look at the move 2 years from now when the dust has settled.

Problems with the Defense, IMHO

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