We must draft better...

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

"Cap Hell" may not be what everybody perceives it to be -- everyone uses San Fransisco as the ultimate example. They had to purge their roster, now look at them.

While the Skins haven't fallen to that point, our version of Cap Hell might be less debilitating, but still negates our ability to keep the players once they become free agents -- Smoot and Pierce are the most recent examples. Can you imagine how retaining those players could have helped us out now?

OK first off, the reason we had to let Smoot and Pierce go was because we ran up against the cap. I'll give you that. But the reason we ran up against the cap is because we are carrying so much dead money for L Coles and J Trotter. Both of those players were signed under the Spurrier regime, and were deemed not to fit with the new coaching staff. If you're going to change coaches every year or so, then no, it doesn't makes sense to sign guys to big bonuses, because there is a good chance they won't fit with the new regime. But somehow I think we've solved the revolving door at the head coaching position, and the front office appears to be quite stable. Even on defense when Williams ultimately leaves, Blache will take over and be able to keep the same talent.

My main point is that the moves being made since Gibbs came back have been of a much more prudent nature. The Springs, Griffin, Washington and Salavea'a signings were not exhorbitant with signing bonuses. Portis and Samuels have gotten big bonuses under the Gibbs regime. But they are rocks on our team, and are both young. You see that the front office has changed it's ways with giving out signing bonuses, which is a good thing. It's just that they still have to deal with some mistakes made by the Spurrier regime.

I definitely am not saying the Skins managed the cap very well back in 2003. The signing bonuses were too large. But now if you notice the deals they're giving out, there's less in the signing bonus and more in roster and workout bonuses. That really helps the cap situation.

I think the current regime has it down pat at this point.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I think we can safely say that cap constraints were a factor in our inability to retain Fred Smoot and Antonio Pierce.

Look, if this everything's coming up roses with regard to personnel decision-making and cap management as some here seem to imply, are you telling me that we wouldn't be in any better of a situation than we're in right now?

I agree with you here, Beem. If we hadn't given Coles and Trotter such big signing bonuses, we probably could have kept Smoot and Pierce. But the point is the Gibbs regime has learned those lessons through the mistakes of the Spurrier regime. Since Gibbs took over, I haven't seen one deal signed that could be considered potentially crippling to the salary cap.

The thing about the salary cap is the mistakes you make in the past haunt you in the present. The mistakes you make in the present don't haunt you until the future. We can't do anything about past mistakes at this point, except learn from them. So the question is what mistakes are we making today? As I look at the numbers, I don't see any.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I think we can safely say that cap constraints were a factor in our inability to retain Fred Smoot and Antonio Pierce.

Look, if this everything's coming up roses with regard to personnel decision-making and cap management as some here seem to imply, are you telling me that we wouldn't be in any better of a situation than we're in right now?

I'm not denying that cap constraints played a role in our inability to re-sign both Smoot & Pierce, though I would argue a deal with Pierce was on the table so the Skins obviously had some room for him, not as much as he wanted but that's life.

Nobody is implying our cap situation is perfect, but the argument is are we headed towards an impending cap hell, and I argue we definitely are not.

[Schneed10]

Here are the players who got big signing bonuses under Gibbs:

Carlos Rogers $9.1 million
Clinton Portis $11.5 million
Cornelius Griffin $8.3 million
Marcus Washington $7 million
Mark Brunell $8.6 million
Santana Moss $10 million
Sean Taylor $11.6 million
Shawn Springs $10.2 million

In my eyes, based on their play over the last two years, every single one of them has justified those bonuses and then some, with the exception of Rogers who needs more time to prove himself. Brunell's contract was steep at the time of signing, but ask yourself, where would we be without him right now?

Kudos to the current staff. There's a reason we've already won more games this year than we did last year.

[lifetimeskin]

OH WELL, I was looking for a discussion on our draft experience, and it started out that way, but by god, "CAP HELL" took over. I sure would like to have a discussion on our drafting. I am not sure where to get the info for other teams, but it would be worth while to compare with maybe the feagles, the giants, the cowgirls, and the pats.

If anyone has a website, I'll do the analysis!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by lifetimeskin

OH WELL, I was looking for a discussion on our draft experience, and it started out that way, but by god, "CAP HELL" took over. I sure would like to have a discussion on our drafting. I am not sure where to get the info for other teams, but it would be worth while to compare with maybe the feagles, the giants, the cowgirls, and the pats.

If anyone has a website, I'll do the analysis!

LOL. Maybe next time start a thread called "Cap Hell"...then we can discuss our draft history.

[bedlamVR]

As for the original discusion on the draft the leugue is littered with first day draft busts and really it is day one where you have to make your choices count and in that regard I belive we havent done too bad . One problem is fans have no patience in regard to player development already Taylor Jaobs is written off, Betts is written off etc etc .

Yes it is good to find good players on day 2 but equallly if you can get equal value from UDFA isn't that a good way to go too ? Ryan Clark, Lamar Marshell, Chris Clemons, Demetric Evans, Ade Jimoha (makes a good 4th CB in this legue), Aki Smith, Cedric Killings even the likes of mike Sellars and James Thrash were orginally UDFAs by this team .

Another point is FA and traded players can make a winning team . Just looking at QB a key area talked about in the draft Jake Delhomme took the panthers to the super bowl wasnt drafted by them, Matt Hasselbeck was in Green Bay, Brad Johnson took the bucs to the superbowl and he started life where he is now with the Vikings .

The point is there is always more than one way to field a competitive team and those who live throught the mantra of draft draft draft have to live with the consiquence and be prepared to wait 3-4 years to see thier draft classes pan out .

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by bedlamVR

As for the original discusion on the draft the leugue is littered with first day draft busts and really it is day one where you have to make your choices count and in that regard I belive we havent done too bad . One problem is fans have no patience in regard to player development already Taylor Jaobs is written off, Betts is written off etc etc .

Yes it is good to find good players on day 2 but equallly if you can get equal value from UDFA isn't that a good way to go too ? Ryan Clark, Lamar Marshell, Chris Clemons, Demetric Evans, Ade Jimoha (makes a good 4th CB in this legue), Aki Smith, Cedric Killings even the likes of mike Sellars and James Thrash were orginally UDFAs by this team .

Another point is FA and traded players can make a winning team . Just looking at QB a key area talked about in the draft Jake Delhomme took the panthers to the super bowl wasnt drafted by them, Matt Hasselbeck was in Green Bay, Brad Johnson took the bucs to the superbowl and he started life where he is now with the Vikings .

The point is there is always more than one way to field a competitive team and those who live throught the mantra of draft draft draft have to live with the consiquence and be prepared to wait 3-4 years to see thier draft classes pan out .

That sums up my, and many other people's, feelings perfectly. The draft isn't the end all, be all answer to everything. We should just lock the thread now because that was a great post...because I agreed with it, haha

[RedskinPete]

Originally Posted by offiss

Well most of them aren't on our roster, or sitting the bench or practice squad somewhere's else.

I remember Desmond to, that's another reason I worry about Gibbs ability to judge talent. lol

You are Both wrong! I remember back about The Howard pick. Gibbs didn't want him. The facts are when Desmond was timed after he was picked Gibbs said "is that all he has"? That pick was all the FO!!! As for Gibbs picking talent we will see!!! That first round pick we gave up on top of others for Campbell will come due in april!!!

[PhxRedSkin]

The draft will always be a crap shoot. No one can blame any team for taking a Heisman winner(Desmond). They just always seem to be busts. We'll all see where Reggie ends up....However, how can we complain at this moment? Cooley, Taylor, and Rogers(already) are household names. Not bad in my opinion. McCune and Broughton may become household sooner than later. Btw how about the Moss/Coles trade for free agency!
Cowpunks will be kicked all around sunday! GO SKINS!

[That Guy]

#56, i can find you other capologists that say its not a big problem, just cause one person agrees with you doesn't make it true.

as far as the original topic, look at the bengals, when i went over their roster, 30+ players have been around over 3 years and there's a ton of draft picks in there too. most importantly, their high picks (CP, CJ) have been absolute slam dunks, and the lower round guys make up very cheap depth on their roster.

[MTK]

I love how people just can't let go of Desmond Howard. One draft bust and it's tainted Gibbs ability to "judge talent" for the rest of his life. Give me a break.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

ARRRGGHHHH. Don't you see? It was the housecleaning that was supposed to send us into cap hell. AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Supposedly, when we cut Carrier, Deion, Bruce Smith and George it was going to cause such a large cap hit because their prorated bonuses would be accelerated. In turn, the accelerated bonuses would cause such a big cap hit that we would be forced to make wholesale cuts to get under the cap. HOW MANY PLAYERS WERE CUT B/C OF THE "CAP HELL" CAUSED BY DEION, CARRIER AND SMITH???

Do you even understand the articles you posted??? Could you at least try for some consistency in your arguments? I know that seems to be asking for a lot, but others in this thread seem to manage it.

i just read this today, so sorry for not getting back to you yesterday. The accelerated portions were spread over the two year period since it was after June 1. so the cap hits were not as big as a 1 year hit, obviously. Cutting people is what saves money on the cap. If a player is due 10 million on the cap, they generally cut him because they can spread what ever portion of the signing is left over that year and next,again depending on when he is cut. Deion screwed us by retiring, but the other guys were able to be spread over two years. Dont sound so rude, its just a discussion. You sound a little too stressed out. relax.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

"Cap Hell" may not be what everybody perceives it to be -- everyone uses San Fransisco as the ultimate example. They had to purge their roster, now look at them.

While the Skins haven't fallen to that point, our version of Cap Hell might be less debilitating, but still negates our ability to keep the players once they become free agents -- Smoot and Pierce are the most recent examples. Can you imagine how retaining those players could have helped us out now?

Thank you!! I have been trying to say this. That we cant keep certain players around because we dont manage the cap very well in the terms of allowing core players leave because of a million here or there. You can not build a chemisty with a team when every 3 years or 4 years you are adding new talent at key positions. I hope we can keep Washington, Arrington, Taylor, Rogers, Giffin for more than just 4 years. Those guys could be awesome together, especially after they play together for several years. How bad to we need smoot right now. Look how many years Tampa was dominant on D with Lynch, brooks, Barber, Sapp.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Thank you!! I have been trying to say this. That we cant keep certain players around because we dont manage the cap very well in the terms of allowing core players leave because of a million here or there. You can not build a chemisty with a team when every 3 years or 4 years you are adding new talent at key positions. I hope we can keep Washington, Arrington, Taylor, Rogers, Giffin for more than just 4 years. Those guys could be awesome together, especially after they play together for several years. How bad to we need smoot right now. Look how many years Tampa was dominant on D with Lynch, brooks, Barber, Sapp.

But you continue to miss the main point. Go back and read all responses to Beem's posts.