Obama Care

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

to you all with health insurance, living a nice life, think aobut some of us who work hard, pay our own way thru life but still cant afford the out of control costs of health care.

reading that blue cross has increased their charges without explanation pisses me off. this is a game they are playing, trying to maintain their stanglehold on the price of health.

this bill isnt about you guys and girls who have health insurance. its about the 30 year old girl working 2 jobs, getting no govt assistance, who cant afford health care b/c health insurance companies got it nice and cozy right now and they dont want that to change.

Your tale is not just tragic, it is shameful. We, the greatest nation on earth, allow our citizens to face such situations. As a country we should be ashamed that we cannot provide a measure of health care for everyone.

[MTK]

The system is seriously flawed. I hope everyone can at least agree on that.

People shouldn't have to go into serious debt over a medical condition that is out of their control. Shameful indeed.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Lotus

TTE, if your house were burning down, my money would help to pay for the fire department to save your stuff.

If you were robbed, my money would pay for law enforcement so that you can get justice.

But I'm gonna draw the line regarding my money when it comes to your living a healthy life?

The line is I have the freedom to buy home owner's insurance. I can buy a premium plan or none at all depending on the local laws. My life is my responsibilty and mine alone.

Also, I don't depend on the fire or police department to safe guard my property and life.

It has been said that Americans are spoiled. Some people are I guess. To think that you're going to go through life without pain and suffering, well . . believe what you want.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

The line is I have the freedom to buy home owner's insurance. I can buy a premium plan or none at all depending on the local laws. My life is my responsibilty and mine alone.

Also, I don't depend on the fire or police department to safe guard my property and life.

It has been said that Americans are spoiled. Some people are I guess. To think that you're going to go through life without pain and suffering, well . . believe what you want.

If your house is seriously in flames, you are not going to call the fire department? If some thugs are clearly bent on breaking into your house and harming your family, you are not going to call the cops? Really?

You are going to fight al Qaeda alone, and you don't get any help from tax-paid government security in the fight against terrorism? Really?

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

im all ears for some options TTE, fire away buddy.

What did our grandparents do when something happened to them? They leaned on each other. Governments come and go, families and friends are the ultimate safety net.

One: Let people buy health insurance over state lines. Hell, let Americans buy foreign insurance if they want. You want choices right?

Two: We as the citizenry don't have to let corporations keep their charters. If they're found to be price gouging, revoke them.

Three: Bust the trusts.

Four: Stop running the dollar into the ground. If our dollars were worth more, then you could buy more health insurance. Maybe doctors would come to see the sick again instead of vice versa. My doctor takes cold hard cash. That's all that I have.

It baffles me how many people place their faith in government. You want to talk about the quality of life. Governments are the leading cause of unnatural death throughout human history. Remember Iraq, Vietnam, Cash for Clunkers, Social Security? That's the government hard at work. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If you need some money for your gal, kids, or whatever; send me a PM. I'll give you all that I can. When you get the government to take it from me without my consent, you're just a thief. That's what it boils down to IMO, no matter how many good intentions or how much self-justification is presented.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

The line is I have the freedom to buy home owner's insurance. I can buy a premium plan or none at all depending on the local laws. My life is my responsibilty and mine alone.

Also, I don't depend on the fire or police department to safe guard my property and life.

It has been said that Americans are spoiled. Some people are I guess. To think that you're going to go through life without pain and suffering, well . . believe what you want.

tramp, i hear ya, as men we can defend our home from potential robbers, we can fight off guys looking to harm our family, we can spray the fire extinguisher under our kitcen sink but what we cant do is play doctor and make someones heart better. we cant scan our womans brain for possible blood cloats in our living room.

trust me, as a guy, it sucks not being able to do something when a loved one is in trouble.

you said i have other options, what are they?

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

If you need some money for your gal, kids, or whatever; send me a PM. I'll give you all that I can. When you get the government to take it from me without my consent, you're just a thief. That's what it boils down to IMO, no matter how many good intentions or how much self-justification is presented.

thanks brother, honestly, but im not one to take a handout either. (i know what your thinking, but this bill is a hand out of my money etc..)

theres only so much bayer can do.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Lotus

If your house is seriously in flames, you are not going to call the fire department? If some thugs are clearly bent on breaking into your house and harming your family, you are not going to call the cops? Really?

You are going to fight al Qaeda alone, and you don't get any help from tax-paid government security in the fight against terrorism? Really?

That house on fire analogy is a talking point that they use for people who watch television and subscribe to FED brainwashing like good little Germans. When I see a politician move his lips, I know he's lying.

If my house burns to the ground so be it. What your asking everyone else to do is to buy me a new one. That's what insurance is for. If I don't have it, oh effing well.

If criminals break into my house, Oh God I wish they would, it will be the last house they break into. Ignore everything else I say, believe that. I've dogs, an AK, and my neighbors do too. Nothing would get my rocks off further than pumping round after round into some low life scum. The police, please . . . Richmond used to be #1 in murder. Do you think I'd entrust my life to a bunch of keystone cops? Cops are social janitors. They draw chalk lines around your body when you're dead. Sometimes they find the person who did it. Sometimes not.

I wouldn't use Al Qaida as an example. That's the biggest criminally negligent eff up in US history.

That's a good point. The dumb asses that allowed 9/11 to happen are the same ones that want to take over your health insurance. Stellar idea y'all.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

That house on fire analogy is a talking point that they use for people who watch television and subscribe to FED brainwashing like good little Germans. When I see a politician move his lips, I know he's lying.

If my house burns to the ground so be it. What your asking everyone else to do is to buy me a new one. That's what insurance is for. If I don't have it, oh effing well.

If criminals break into my house, Oh God I wish they would, it will be the last house they break into. Ignore everything else I say, believe that. I've dogs, an AK, and my neighbors do too. Nothing would get my rocks off further than pumping round after round into some low life scum. The police, please . . . Richmond used to be #1 in murder. Do you think I'd entrust my life to a bunch of keystone cops? Cops are social janitors. They draw chalk lines around your body when you're dead. Sometimes they find the person who did it. Sometimes not.

I wouldn't use Al Qaida as an example. That's the biggest criminally negligent eff up in US history.

That's a good point. The dumb asses that allowed 9/11 to happen are the same ones that want to take over your health insurance. Stellar idea y'all.

You twisted my examples. I think we both know that if your house were actively burning (not already burned completely) but too much for you to handle alone, you'd call the fire department. Otherwise you'd be a complete idiot, which you are not.

My example of thugs (that's plural) was intended to convey the idea that you are outnumbered and cannot defend your loved ones by yourself, regardless of your firearms. In this case you would call the police, because otherwise you'd be a complete idiot, which you are not.

So, back to brass tacks: I already pay so that you can call for that help. If I then refuse to pay so that you can live a normal healthy life, I'm drawing a very arbitrary line.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

tramp, i hear ya, as men we can defend our home from potential robbers, we can fight off guys looking to harm our family, we can spray the fire extinguisher under our kitcen sink but what we cant do is play doctor and make someones heart better. we cant scan our womans brain for possible blood cloats in our living room.

trust me, as a guy, it sucks not being able to do something when a loved one is in trouble.

you said i have other options, what are they?

I understand what you're saying. No man wants to throw in the towel. When my buddy was dying of hepatitis there was nothing I could do. It was in God's hands, or providence, or the dice? Whatever! I couldn't stop him from dying. In those situations we reach out in desperation for answers and solutions. We're willing to do things we wouldn't normally do.

Me, I'd rather take than beg, but that's just ego. If I had to, I'd dig ditches and shovel manure before someone I loved went without.

Have you considered the option that our system could actually get worse? Haven't you been listening to the horror stories coming out of England. Once someone gets into a system, they're numbers. You're just a statistic that can be written off. Have you considered the fact that a beuaracrat might just write off your gal because she costs too much money?

Options:

Do you go to church? My friend's child recently died of HDH. He's just a butcher and doesn't make much. His church teamed up with a Catholic Org and paid for a lot of the treatments. In the end it didn't matter. No matter how much money they threw at it. It wasn't enough.

Have you asked the Shriners? They can point you into the right direction. They help people and don't ask anything in return.

Do you have any friends or family that you could hit up for money? I know it sucks but eff pride. I'd rather have my loved ones than my ego.

What about the WP? I've done favors for people on here and a few people have hooked me up too.

[MTK]

Is it really too much to ask for a functional & affordable health care system for all? Is that too much to expect from this great nation??

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Lotus

You twisted my examples. I think we both know that if your house were actively burning (not already burned completely) but too much for you to handle alone, you'd call the fire department. Otherwise you'd be a complete idiot, which you are not.

My example of thugs (that's plural) was intended to convey the idea that you are outnumbered and cannot defend your loved ones by yourself, regardless of your firearms. In this case you would call the police, because otherwise you'd be a complete idiot, which you are not.

So, back to brass tacks: I already pay so that you can call for that help. If I then refuse to pay so that you can live a normal healthy life, I'm drawing a very arbitrary line.

No, I got your points. I'm not geared to think that way. I don't trust anyone and expect everyone to take advantage of me. To put my faith in good intentions or trust is asking to be taken advantage of.

You missed my points. When you ask the government to come to the rescue, don't be surprised when they never go home. They'll eat out of your refrigerator, eye-ball your wife, and drink up your good yak; all for your own good of course.

Ha! You're never outnumbered if you have an AK. You just don't understand how cheap 7.62 is. Check out Cheaper Than Dirt online. You'll see.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Is it really too much to ask for a functional & affordable health care system for all? Is that too much to expect from this great nation??

Sure. Pull out the troops from all over the globe. Fix SS, Medicaid, and Medicare. Oh, and take care of that pesky looming insolvency issue too. Then we can talk.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

No, I got your points. I'm not geared to think that way. I don't trust anyone and expect everyone to take advantage of me. To put my faith in good intentions or trust is asking to be taken advantage of.

You missed my points. When you ask the government to come to the rescue, don't be surprised when they never go home. They'll eat out of your refrigerator, eye-ball your wife, and drink up your good yak; all for your own good of course.

Ha! You're never outnumbered if you have an AK. You just don't understand how cheap 7.62 is. Check out Cheaper Than Dirt online. You'll see.

It is difficult to be more mistrusting of the government than I am. I am fiercely independent politically because I trust no politicians and the higher up the ladder they are, the less I will trust them. I am not arguing to trust the government.

But the point is we are already required by law to financially support government programs. And in an emergency you will take advantage of this situation. My tax money enables you to do so. Given this, if I say that I will pay for your fire protection, but won't pay for your health protection, I am drawing an utterly arbitrary line.

Let me put this differently: you already argued that you would help others in need, such as Over the Mountain. National health care will simply normalize this situation so that those in need will get the help. It is actually not much different from what you have argued in terms of people in a community sticking together.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Lotus

It is difficult to be more mistrusting of the government than I am. I am fiercely independent politically because I trust no politicians and the higher up the ladder they are, the less I will trust them. I am not arguing to trust the government.

But the point is we are already required by law to financially support government programs. And in an emergency you will take advantage of this situation. My tax money enables you to do so. Given this, if I say that I will pay for your fire protection, but won't pay for your health protection, I am drawing an utterly arbitrary line.

Let me put this differently: you already argued that you would help others in need, such as Over the Mountain. National health care will simply normalize this situation so that those in need will get the help. It is actually not much different from what you have argued in terms of people in a community sticking together.

You can't have it both ways! You sound like a Neo-con talking about Jesus and then dropping bombs on people without a declaration of war. You can't sit here and tell me the government is corrupt and you don't trust them, except for this issue. It doesn't work that way. I pay the police and fire dept with my local taxes. I have a say in who the chiefs are. I can go to the county supervisor and have them removed. They are held accountable for their actions.

In the end it doesn't matter. My governor and state legislature has told Obama and Congress to eat a dick. I'm not paying. When that BS bill gets passed, we're filling a lawsuit on the twisted sisters in Washington. End of discussion.