Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess

[JoeRedskin]

Even reading this thread is getting too much like work. I feel like I should be charging an hourly rate just to open up the thread at this point.

The thing is, the issue is simple on its face but complex in the details. Under the CBA, can the NFL do what it did? Getting to the details on that requires a lot more research than I am going to do for free. Their are strong arguments on each side and lawyers will make lots of money before the issue is resolved.

[HoopheadVII]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Ok so in our circling of issues ...... who hears complaints in regards to owners vs. owners? I'm assuming the Commish and Exec Committe? and if there is no satisfaction? court?

you might be right, however there still is the gentlemans way of handling the whole issue which if you have a problem with your neighbor you should address it with them first and if it goes no where then you call the police. Maybe the appeal process is just that a stepping stone of formality that everyone knows will go no where but should be done before court filing happens. That whay the courts can't ask was it taken to Arbitration first.

I still think there is something your missing though other wise there would be no reason to waist the Arbitrator's time when the two teams know the issue is more fitting for the court process instead of Arbitration.

I've regurgitated what the NFL Bylaws say over and over in this thread. They are available on nfl.com if you want to read them yourself.

Constitution and Bylaws of the National Football League

[SBXVII]

What dirty laundry? As I understand you correctly the league and the NFLPA agreed to the Adendum and the punishment. Basically the NFLPA can't file a law suit over the past issue's since they gave up that right when the new CBA was signed. So what dirty laundry will suprise the NFLPA and make the league worried enough to want to negotiate a settlement? If there was no collusion by the owners.

I still say we are missing something. There is no reason to take it before the Arbitrator if he can't rule on the issue. You'd not waist your time. You would file in court and hopefully prior to the court date your leverage over the issue would force the league to give back CAP space or be faced with a penalty ove colluding.

[HoopheadVII]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

So to be clear... what do you think the appeal is about? apparently you have this figured out. The team can't appeal the punishment cause as you say the Commish has autonomy. It's not the warning cause it doesn't matter what the warning was the Commish has ulitmate power to punish if he see's fit. So what is being appealed according to you?

My best guess is one of:

1) The way the CBA was modified to include penalties was unfair

2) The modifications to the CBA to include these penalties were unfair because they were clearly intended to punish member Clubs - and anything dealing with how the League punishes its member Clubs doesn't belong in the CBA

3) Changing the salary cap to accomodate penalties in this way is completely inconsistent with the concept of the salary cap as it's written into the CBA, and to change that fundamental concept requires complete revision, not a simple side letter.

4) They're playing chicken with the League and are claiming whatever it takes to get the League to want the case to go away before they start copying the NFLPA on whatever documents the Skins decide might be relevant to the case.

[HoopheadVII]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

What dirty laundry? As I understand you correctly the league and the NFLPA agreed to the Adendum and the punishment. Basically the NFLPA can't file a law suit over the past issue's since they gave up that right when the new CBA was signed. So what dirty laundry will suprise the NFLPA and make the league worried enough to want to negotiate a settlement? If there was no collusion by the owners.

I still say we are missing something. There is no reason to take it before the Arbitrator if he can't rule on the issue. You'd not waist your time. You would file in court and hopefully prior to the court date your leverage over the issue would force the league to give back CAP space or be faced with a penalty ove colluding.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd guess the Skins could try to include any document the have about anything remotely relevant that the League doesn't want the NFLPA to see.

[Monkeydad]

OK, I'm getting very frustrated with these cap penalties.

This morning I heard on Yahoo Sports Radio that Jonathan Vilma's lawyer had the Saints restructure his contract for the upcoming season before the known suspension was announced. They reduced his salary and cap number down to the league minimum for the lost 2012 season and paid him a big bonus, so when he would be suspended, he'd lose the least amount of money possible.


Then I open my browser and see this on the news:
Surprising Player Tops NFL Salaries | ThePostGame

Charles Johnson is the highest-paid player in 2011? He was paid $34million of a $72million contract in one season? Sounds exactly like what we were handed a salary cap death sentence for.

I expect the Saints to get punished and piled on for the Vilma contract, but the Panthers will probably be held to a different standard than us and Dallas....just like Chicago, Houston and other teams that did the exact same thing as us.

This selective enforcement is really getting old.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Monkeydad

OK, I'm getting very frustrated with these cap penalties.

This morning I heard on Yahoo Sports Radio that Jonathan Vilma's lawyer had the Saints restructure his contract for the upcoming season before the known suspension was announced. They reduced his salary and cap number down to the league minimum for the lost 2012 season and paid him a big bonus, so when he would be suspended, he'd lose the least amount of money possible.


Then I open my browser and see this on the news:
Surprising Player Tops NFL Salaries | ThePostGame

Charles Johnson is the highest-paid player in 2011? He was paid $34million of a $72million contract in one season? Sounds exactly like what we were handed a salary cap death sentence for.

I expect the Saints to get punished and piled on for the Vilma contract, but the Panthers will probably be held to a different standard than us and Dallas....just like Chicago, Houston and other teams that did the exact same thing as us.

This selective enforcement is really getting old.

Good post. Goodell just really seems lost on this subject and I agree he is wildly inconsistent. I dont see how the arbitrator is going to rule in the NFL favor. My biggest problem is the NFL signed off on our contracts, why?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Good post. Goodell just really seems lost on this subject and I agree he is wildly inconsistent. I dont see how the arbitrator is going to rule in the NFL favor. My biggest problem is the NFL signed off on our contracts, why?

I agree with you on both points. My question is, what else will the arbitrator grant us besides giving us our 18MM back in 2013? The damage has already been done in 2012, so theres not much point in giving us money back this year. If they give us another 18MM next year, it could possibly hurt us more than help, as we would need to spend tons of money to reach the salary floor (which goes into effect next year). we'd essentially have to overspend on big name free agents and i, for one, dont want the skins to go back to that model of running a franchise.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Monkeydad

Then I open my browser and see this on the news:
Surprising Player Tops NFL Salaries | ThePostGame

Charles Johnson is the highest-paid player in 2011? He was paid $34million of a $72million contract in one season? Sounds exactly like what we were handed a salary cap death sentence for.

I expect the Saints to get punished and piled on for the Vilma contract, but the Panthers will probably be held to a different standard than us and Dallas....just like Chicago, Houston and other teams that did the exact same thing as us.

This selective enforcement is really getting old.

2011 wasn't a uncapped year though. Just throwing that out there, not that I don't agree.

[That Guy]

there's a cap in place. the money isn't disappearing into a capless hole, so every cent of that 72mill is accounted for in cap space one way or the other. if he got 34mill, some of that is bonus money which is prorated over the life of the contract.

I think the skins penalty is bogus, but that's a completely different cirumstance to the quoted article, which is meaningless in the skins' case.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Good post. Goodell just really seems lost on this subject and I agree he is wildly inconsistent. I dont see how the arbitrator is going to rule in the NFL favor. My biggest problem is the NFL signed off on our contracts, why?

We're back to that issue again. The League is approving contracts only to punish the teams for them later? Why not FOLLOW their own rules and disallow a bad contract from the start?

If what I heard about Vilma's contract is true, it would have been blatantly obvious to anyone, especially the League office what the Saints were doing. They knew they were going to suspend him, but they still approve a contract restructuring that is manipulating the salary cap and intentionally trying to minimize the impact of a player's punishment from the League?

"You're going to suspend our guy and take his pay for a year? Well, then we'll slash his salary for the year, move it to next year when he plays and give him a bonus!"

Yeah, that will teach the players a lesson...

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I agree with you on both points. My question is, what else will the arbitrator grant us besides giving us our 18MM back in 2013? The damage has already been done in 2012, so theres not much point in giving us money back this year. If they give us another 18MM next year, it could possibly hurt us more than help, as we would need to spend tons of money to reach the salary floor (which goes into effect next year). we'd essentially have to overspend on big name free agents and i, for one, dont want the skins to go back to that model of running a franchise.

agree, 18mil would have to include stipulations where if we didnt spend it wouldnt hurt us as part of the compensation deal. Why not compensatory damages that includes draft picks as well?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

agree, 18mil would have to include stipulations where if we didnt spend it wouldnt hurt us as part of the compensation deal. Why not compensatory damages that includes draft picks as well?

Maybe we could get a compensatory 3rd rounder or two as the situation is somewhat similar to how the compensatory picks are awarded now - teams who lose more free agents than they sign get compensatory picks (i realize i'm over simplyfing it). In our situation, we lost the ability to sign free agents.

[mooby]

All this talk about "why isn't the league office punishing other teams for similar moves" brings to mind the fact that the league office is only the people enforcing the punishment, but they aren't the main reason for the punishment itself. That would be John Mara, head of that committee that made the punishment, and also known as co-owner of one of our closest rivals. He doesn't give a shit what the Panthers, Bears, or any other team did, he saw an opportunity to punish us and he took it.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by mooby

All this talk about "why isn't the league office punishing other teams for similar moves" brings to mind the fact that the league office is only the people enforcing the punishment, but they aren't the main reason for the punishment itself. That would be John Mara, head of that committee that made the punishment, and also known as co-owner of one of our closest rivals. He doesn't give a shit what the Panthers, Bears, or any other team did, he saw an opportunity to punish us and he took it.

Yeah, really interesting how the two teams hit by major punishments were in the NFC East.