Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

The real argument here is not that anyone goes to jail but the denial of services available to heterosexuals to homosexuals based on the belief that the moral fabrics of our culture would be endangered if we did not.

You will note that this is the same argument used throughout history to oppress and discriminate against certain groups.

I won't lie, I can see why someone who is a member of one of those "certain groups," having experienced discrimination would be so averse to any preference denied a given demographic, almost regardless of reason. I hope I worded that well.

[BleedBurgundy]

In honor of my 2,500th post, I'd like to say that I love everyone. Tons of love. Even animals, Beemn.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Saden:

You are absolutely right that the standard of review will usually dictate the outcome of a case involving an alleged violation of the Equal Protection Clause. In a nutshell, there are three standards of review: (1) strict scrutiny is applied to laws which discriminate on the basis of race or religion; (2) intermediate scrutiny is applied to laws which discriminate on the basis of gender; and (3) rational basis review is applied to most every other law which discriminates on some other basis. FYI - the above description isn't very comprehensive and people use different terms for the three levels of review.

By most accounts, laws prohibiting same sex marriage are subject to rational basis review, which is the least exacting standard of review. In order to find that legislation does not pass rational basis review, the court must find that the law cannot be supported by ANY conceivable justification. So, if it is at all conceivable that gay marriage could adversely affect society in ANY way, bans on gay marriage will survive rational basis review. Some courts have started to give rational basis review some teeth, but by and large rational basis review sets an exceedingly low bar.

In fairness to BleedBurgundy, he never said homosexuals to who try to get married should be tossed in jail and, as he pointed out, laws barring gay marriage do not criminalize attempts by homosexuals to get married. Instead, they deny same sex couples the right to have their unions recognized by the state and to have access to the rights associated with such recognition. BleedBurgundy is also entitled to his opinion that homosexuality is immoral. I personally think that point of view is rooted is fear and intolerance and is antiquated and Talibanesque, but to each his own.

BB:

Polls show that same sex marriage bans are going to go the way of T-Rex within the next few years. Whereas people over 40 tend to oppose gay marriage in overwhelming numbers, the opposite is true for people under 40. So, citing support for gay marriage bans is a bit of a double-edged sword.

I would also like to ask you why you think same sex couples should be barred from adopting kids. Keep in mind that thousands upon thousands of kids are waiting to be adopted and many of them will never have families to call their own. That you would prefer a kid to never having any family whatsoever in his/her entire life to having a same sex couple as parents is breathtaking in its heartlessness.

Finally, aside from saying that homosexuality is unnatural, you haven't advanced a single argument as to how same sex marriage is bad for society. People do a lot of things that are unnatural. We take medicines to alleviate sicknesses, we drive cars to avoid long walks and we fly in airplanes to travel across continents, but that doesn't make Advil, Ford and Northwest Airlines harbingers of the collapse of society. You can say it just "feels" wrong, but that doesn't really cut it. I can articulate many reasons why murder, robbery, rape, etc. are wrong. I can't really articulate why I like the color green. To me, the reasons you've expressed for thinking homosexuality is wrong sound a lot like my attempts to explain why I like the color green.

[saden1]

If only we enforced adultly laws we would have happier couples and less devoice in our culture. Got to love the Utah law. How far do you go? Where do you draw the line?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

BleedBurgundy:

I hope you take this in good fun, but I think it's kind of funny that the guy with boobs in his signature is talking about how allowing homosexuals to commit to each other for life is against common "decency."

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Saden:


BB:

Polls show that same sex marriage bans are going to go the way of T-Rex within the next few years. Whereas people over 40 tend to oppose gay marriage in overwhelming numbers, the opposite is true for people under 40. So, citing support for gay marriage bans is a bit of a double-edged sword.

I would also like to ask you why you think same sex couples should be barred from adopting kids. Keep in mind that thousands upon thousands of kids are waiting to be adopted and many of them will never have families to call their own. That you would prefer a kid to never having any family whatsoever in his/her entire life to having a same sex couple as parents is breathtaking in its heartlessness.

Finally, aside from saying that homosexuality is unnatural, you haven't advanced a single argument as to how same sex marriage is bad for society. People do a lot of things that are unnatural. We take medicines to alleviate sicknesses, we drive cars to avoid long walks and we fly in airplanes to travel across continents, but that doesn't make Advil, Ford and Northwest Airlines harbingers of the collapse of society. You can say it just "feels" wrong, but that doesn't really cut it. I can articulate many reasons why murder, robbery, rape, etc. are wrong. I can't really articulate why I like the color green. To me, the reasons you've expressed for thinking homosexuality is wrong sound a lot like my attempts to explain why I like the color green.

It would be equally true that you cannot produce any reasons for declaring homosexuality well and proper. It's clearly a moral question and moral questions are always subjective. On an issue like this, where matters of morality are being decided it has to be majority rule, in my opinion. As long as the majority of society agrees that homosexuality is negative and immoral, legislation like Prop 8 will stand a good chance of remaining law. But, as you said, all trending seems to indicate that my way of thinking is truly going the way of the dodo. It is my personal belief that that is to the detriment of society. So buck up, in ten years, you'll be right and I'll be the equivalent of the old guy in the neighborhood yelling at the kids to get off my lawn. We'll see if the nation is better off.

As to your point about adoption, I believe that any home that is based in wholesale immorality is a negative environment for children, who are at the mercy of their legal guardians on a multitude of levels. So while I can obviously appreciate your point, my reasoning is again based in morality, which you will not like.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

If only we enforced adultly laws we would have happier couples and less devoice in our culture. Got to love the Utah law. How far do you go? Where do you draw the line?

I agree that that is a question to be asked on both sides of any "moral" argument.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

BleedBurgundy:

I hope you take this in good fun, but I think it's kind of funny that the guy with boobs in his signature is talking about how allowing homosexuals to commit to each other for life is against common "decency."

See, you failed the moral Rorschach test that is my signature! You wanted to see boobs, so those are boobs. What if I told you those are actually eyes?

I'm kidding.


Good night folks, may you sleep soundly in your bed, next to your partner of the opposite sex.




Again, kidding...

[saden1]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I won't lie, I can see why someone who is a member of one of those "certain groups," having experienced discrimination would be so averse to any preference denied a given demographic, almost regardless of reason. I hope I worded that well.

That's comforting, but I need food, water, and shelter from the mob.

[Dirtbag59]

I forget who it was but there was a Repbulican Consultant on CNN that was talking about what the Republican party needs to do and I was stunned about how right she was. Anyway she went on to say that the party needs to focus more on shrinking government and less on how we should live our lives. The funny thing is unless the Republican party evolves to a more do what you want with your life policy then they are going to lose my generation (under 30) as we saw during the prop 8 vote.

I think it's ironic that every election these days seems to make me choose between my morals and my wallet. With that said looking back I'm excited now that Obama won especially with the retirement of the Supreme Court Justices on the horizon as well as the blow up over at the McCain camp. Though I think way to much of it is to much information.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

I forget who it was but there was a Repbulican Consultant on CNN that was talking about what the Republican party needs to do and I was stunned about how right she was. Anyway she went on to say that the party needs to focus more on shrinking government and less on how we should live our lives. The funny thing is unless the Republican party evolves to a more do what you want with your life policy then they are going to lose my generation (under 30) as we saw during the prop 8 vote.

I think it's ironic that every election these days seems to make me choose between my morals and my wallet. With that said looking back I'm excited now that Obama won especially with the retirement of the Supreme Court Justices on the horizon as well as the blow up over at the McCain camp. Though I think way to much of it is to much information.

That was Susan Molinari

[MTK]

Interesting to see the economic impact of Prop 8:

Demise of Same-Sex Weddings Disheartens Businesses

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I'm always perplexed when ballot measures like these (and for marijuana decriminalization) seem to fail. Especially in California.

David Frum, a conservative writer for National Review said that all you have to do is look at the demographics for those who find the gay issue so important -- it's overwhelmingly over the age of 40.

One day, the tide will turn.

Yes, I believe in our lifetime it will.

[onlydarksets]

Just want to say that this thread has been probably the most civil political discussion on this board.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Just want to say that this thread has been probably the most civil political discussion on this board.

Ha, I can fix that!!!