Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)

[SOUL-SKINS]

I can't believe this thread is getting so much attention. It's Byron Leftwich.
Why would we even consider this!! He's pretty much the same type QB as Campbell.
It would be a lateral move in my opinion.

[over the mountain]

JC is a much better QB than leftwich IMO. ones an entrenched starter with solid numbers, the other is unemployed.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Lotta Campbell-lovers in here apparently. To clarify my remark about Campbell being too tall, Zorn worked with him all offseason to stand shorter in the pocket because Zorn felt he was too tall.... so Campbell is always crouched down a little bit - that cant be comfortable for him. Someone also said something about JLC thinking Campbell is our franchise QB, and thats not accurate. JLC has said he thinks we should stick with Campbell because he's not THE probelm. O-line is our biggest and we still dont have good receivers. JLC thinks Campbell hasnt done enough either way to show if he can be THE GUY for us or not.

Here is an article I found after our first loss this season:

Trying to Get Up to Speed - washingtonpost.com

He's so big, and I just want him to move faster," Zorn said of the 6-foot-5 Campbell, who completed 15 of 27 passes Thursday night for 133 yards with a touchdown and an 81.2 passer rating. "And we'll continue to work on it. I'm not discouraged with a lot of the things he did. I just want him to get better."


Zorn lauded Campbell for protecting the football and not turning it over but was concerned by his tendency to lock onto a particular receiver, which contributed to a sack on the first offensive play of the game. Campbell also neglected to attempt to find a primary receiver downfield too often -- opting for "check-downs" to secondary options instead -- and Zorn is still waiting for a vertical component of his attack take shape.

Some scouts and executives believe Campbell is a poor fit for the West Coast offense, with his size and skills favoring seven-step drops and more deep throws, instead of the three-step drops and quick, rhythmic cadence of Zorn's style. "When I watch that team, I think something's going to have to give," said one NFL executive who has studied Campbell closely and believes he could succeed as a drop-back passer. "Is it the scheme or the quarterback? At some point either the coach is going to have to change what he does to fit the quarterback, or they're going to need a different quarterback."

Did Campbell improve in some areas of his play between 07 and 08? Sure. His passer rating went up a little bit (as it should for any QB in a WCO) and he stopped fumbling every game... thats good. But the fundamental flaws in Campbells game mentioned in the article - holding on to the ball too long and locking onto a receiver - have plagued campbell his entire career. They were a problem in college. They were a problem under Gibbs. They were a problem under Saunders. They were a problem at the beginning fo the season with Zorn. They were still a problem at the end of the season. In the WCO, you simply can't have a QB who holds on to the ball to long. Arguably, that would apply to any offense, but in a Coreyll style offense like the one we ran before, 5 and 7 step drops are more common than they are in a WCO. In that type of offense, Campbells tendancy to hold onto the ball can be covered over a little bit. but not here. the WCO (and one with a weak offensive line), where the majority of the passing plays involve 3 step drops, its KILLER.

If Campbell had shown some improvement in getting rid of the ball quicker and not locking in on his receivers as the season went on, i might feel differently. but he didnt. we're wasting our time with Campbell and the WCO. Either he needs to go, or the system does. However, if the system went (and Zorn was fired), and Campbell had to learn another new offense - theres no way he'd want to resign here, so we'd lose him anyways as a free agent. Holding onto campbell now does nothing but delay the inevitable. One way or another, chances are, he wont be our starting QB in 2011. We can keep him another year or two, and get nothing for him when he leaves, or we can get something for him in a trade and start developing a plan B.

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise. I felt that way about Ramsey. I used to feel that way about Campbell. Maybe i just havent done a good job of expressing my argument convincingly, but i just dont have much hope for Campbell in a skins uniform.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Lotta Campbell-lovers in here apparently. To clarify my remark about Campbell being too tall, Zorn worked with him all offseason to stand shorter in the pocket because Zorn felt he was too tall.... so Campbell is always crouched down a little bit - that cant be comfortable for him.

Zorn didn't feel he was too tall. He needed to be quicker and have better balance on his drops which means deeper bend in the knees. That helps keep your feet balanced and allows a quicker set and release.

JLC has said he thinks we should stick with Campbell because he's not THE probelm.

Not to argue your point, you're correct here. But I don't put to much stock in what JLC has to say other than direct quotes he gets from Redskin Park or the players. This is the same guy whose in-depth knowledge of football had him writing a column after the draft about 4WR, 2TE sets.

Here is an article I found after our first loss this season:

Trying to Get Up to Speed - washingtonpost.com

you should've posted these two paragraphs also:
Zorn discounted the notion Campbell might not be a perfect fit for this offense but was honest about the length of time necessary to grasp it fully. He spoke again yesterday about how "wild" Pro Bowl passer Matt Hasselbeck was in his first season in Seattle with Zorn as quarterbacks coach, even after Hasselbeck's four years as a backup in the same system in Green Bay, but said Campbell has enough talent to overcome any hiccups.
"I think he's got enough athleticism, I really do, to speed up his game in certain situations," Zorn said. "And part of that, I'm hoping, is just the idea of understanding the offense better, the speed of it. He's not there yet, but I'm not totally discouraged. We have to make big plays when the opportunity is there."

pretty good endorsement from Zorn, and this was after a discouraging loss....

They were still a problem at the end of the season.

The problem at the end of the season was the OL breakdown.

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe he's the savior. I believe he is a solid, competent NFL starter who hasn't reached his potential. He has the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, if he develops in the WCO. He will never be a Manning, Brady (future HoFer) type

[skinsfan69]

No question Leftwich can start in the NFL and the perfect fit for him is Carolina, not here. He's going to need to solid line in front of him and a running game. If he has those two things ( plus a nice deep target..Steve Smith) then he can get the job done. It really shocked me that certain teams didn't jump to get this guy.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise. I felt that way about Ramsey. I used to feel that way about Campbell. Maybe i just havent done a good job of expressing my argument convincingly, but i just dont have much hope for Campbell in a skins uniform.

classic example of over-exagerrating what people were saying. how does "hes good", "hes solid" or "potential to be a borderline pro-bowler" = undisputed savior?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Zorn didn't feel he was too tall. He needed to be quicker and have better balance on his drops which means deeper bend in the knees. That helps keep your feet balanced and allows a quicker set and release.

interesting comment. Ive never considered that so i'll take your word for it.

Not to argue your point, you're correct here. But I don't put to much stock in what JLC has to say other than direct quotes he gets from Redskin Park or the players. This is the same guy whose in-depth knowledge of football had him writing a column after the draft about 4WR, 2TE sets.

I dont puch much stock in what JLC says either, but moreso his quotes. I just wanted to clarify someone elses comment about JLC thinking he would be our franchise QB.

you should've posted these two paragraphs also:
Zorn discounted the notion Campbell might not be a perfect fit for this offense but was honest about the length of time necessary to grasp it fully. He spoke again yesterday about how "wild" Pro Bowl passer Matt Hasselbeck was in his first season in Seattle with Zorn as quarterbacks coach, even after Hasselbeck's four years as a backup in the same system in Green Bay, but said Campbell has enough talent to overcome any hiccups.
"I think he's got enough athleticism, I really do, to speed up his game in certain situations," Zorn said. "And part of that, I'm hoping, is just the idea of understanding the offense better, the speed of it. He's not there yet, but I'm not totally discouraged. We have to make big plays when the opportunity is there."

pretty good endorsement from Zorn, and this was after a discouraging loss...

Actually, i deliberately didnt put those paragraphs there because i viewed them as nothing but spin. Campbell has understandably had a problem with confidence. A HC is NEVER EVER going to say things publically that would hurt his QBs confidence. Add to that the fact that the only reason Zorn got this job was Snyder and Cerrato wanted someone to develop Campbell... if Zorn said Campbell wouldnt ever be a great WCO QB, then he would be giving his boss no reason to keep him around.

I dont beleive anything Zorn says about Campbell. Cerratos opinion is more important to me (i cant beleive i just said that) and when he was given the opportunity to give Campbell some sort of endorsement after the season, he didnt.

The problem at the end of the season was the OL breakdown.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe he's the savior. I believe he is a solid, competent NFL starter who hasn't reached his potential. He has the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, if he develops in the WCO. He will never be a Manning, Brady (future HoFer) type

And this is where i agree with you 100% (or close to it). I think he is a hard enough worker, that eventually (2 years maybe), he could conceivably be comfortable enough in the WCO to be a serviceable WCO QB. He wont lose games for us, but he wont win any for us either... He's essentially Trent Dilfer. You dont build a team around trent dilfer. If we really want to go with the WCO, we need to find a guy that fits the mold of a WCO QB. we need to move campbell for draft picks and then use those picks on linemen to help our new QB out. Campbell will never reach his potential in this offense. This offense will never reach its potential with Campbell under center. Its just not a good match. We can force it, we can try to make it work and we can do ok... but thats not going to cut it in the NFC East. With Campbell under center in the WCO, this offense will never be anything more than mediocre at best.

[Son Of Man]

Colt Brennan will be the future of the Redskins!!!

Mark my word. Zorn's hand picked version of Matt Hassleback (or Brady if we are soooo lucky).

We don't need Byron "Long delivery/No Mobility" Leftwich muddying the water.

[44ever]

Originally Posted by Son Of Man

Colt Brennan will be the future of the Redskins!!!

Mark my word. Zorn's hand picked version of Matt Hassleback (or Brady if we are soooo lucky).

We don't need Byron "Long delivery/No Mobility" Leftwich muddying the water.

I agree here 100% Colt IMO if we keep him will be the Brady of the Skins. With that said, I Still want to see what JC can do next season.

[44ever]

Zorn critisized Colt for his fast release saying that his throws were to reckless Even though he connected and thread the needle. Almost saying he was lucky to make the completion. Maybe he's just that fast. IMO if you give Colt the same amount of playing time as Campbell. Colt would be better. I know this is a Leftwich thread but...

I'm not part of the "Colt Cult" just stating my opinion.

[2BIG2BSKINNY]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Normally, Campbell would be a free agent in 2010, but if theres no salary cap, he doesnt have enough "tenure" in the NFL to become one. he would only have 5 years of experience instead of the required 6. Campell is still on his rookie contract and because of that, hes one of the lowest-paid starting QBs in the league. we'll have no financial obligation to move him next season (assuming my understanding of the rules surrounding an uncapped year are correct). My biggest fear is that when Campbell fails this year, he'll hurt his image so much that his trade value plummets.

Campbell did a decent job this year, considering hes a horrible fit for our offense. his trade value will likely never be higher. He would be an excellent and cheap alternative for the Titans, Bears, and Vikings. Unless coaches see something in him that makes them SURE he will adjust to the WCO and be our undisputed Franchise QB, the smart thing to do would be to trade him now.

Otherwise, we'll be kicking ourselves in the butt for not moving him like we were with Patrick Ramsey. Miami was offering us a 1st rounder for him and we werent sold on him in our offense. By holding on to him, we confirmed our fears about him and received next to no compensation from Denver when he left. If someone offers us a 2nd rounder (or more) for Campbell, we would be fools not to take it and acquire Leftwhich. If the OP is correct and he wants to play here, he would be a decent stop-gap while we groom Brennan.

All year I watched as other teams attacked the defense down the field and we do not. JC had a decent year! Int"s down and fumbles were not a problem! If you want him to succeed let him attack the defense... even with no results then we can make a clear determination of the ability of JC as starting QB!

At least we would know what we have then!

I really thought when the offense got bogged down after the mid year we would go no huddle some and let jason play without thinking... Maybe we are to busy trying to plan a way to win then just going out there and doing what these players have done since they were kids...play football!

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

classic example of over-exagerrating what people were saying. how does "hes good", "hes solid" or "potential to be a borderline pro-bowler" = undisputed savior?

perhaps "undisputed future" would have been a better term, but considering the run of mediocre QBs this team has had for 15 years, being a savior here wouldnt entail much more than that.

Originally Posted by 2BIG2BSKINNY

All year I watched as other teams attacked the defense down the field and we do not. JC had a decent year! Int"s down and fumbles were not a problem! If you want him to succeed let him attack the defense... even with no results then we can make a clear determination of the ability of JC as starting QB!

At least we would know what we have then!

I really thought when the offense got bogged down after the mid year we would go no huddle some and let jason play without thinking... Maybe we are to busy trying to plan a way to win then just going out there and doing what these players have done since they were kids...play football!

JC didnt attack defenses because JC doesnt look at his primary target. I only attended one game in person this year (Cardninals), but we had receivers open a number of times in that game and Campbell wasnt even looking at them... he consisently (as indicated in the article i quoted) stares down his check-down guy the entire time instead of looking at his primary target.

JC is also horribly timid in the red-zone. I've heard many people say he is too afraid to make a mistake. Whether thats a fault intrinsic to Campbell, lack of confidence in our receivers, or merely a result of having to learn a new offense nearly every year for the better part of the past decade, the fact remains that it seems true. campbell is unwilling to take chances. While that is one reason why he doesnt throw that many INTs, its also a reason he doesnt throw many touchdowns either.

If Campbell was 2 years younger and had 2 additional years on his contract at a low figure, i wouldnt be wanting to trade him. but the fact is, this is the last year we can realistically trade him and get something in return. Campbell hasnt shown me enough to think he's the future here.

i work in risk management, so i'll put it another way - the risk that campbell fails to become a successful west coast QB in 2009 and we have to look elsewhere for a QB FAR outweighs the risk that if we traded him for a 2nd rounder (or more); he would then go on to his new team and become a perennial pro-bowl QB and we would regret making a rash decision.

By sticking with Campbell, we are really going "all in" this year. If Campbell fails, it means not only is Campbell gone (atleast as a starter) next year, but also that Zorn and the WCO are gone too and we build from scratch again in 2010. New coach; new system; new quarterback. I would argue that sticking with Campbell puts this franchise back far more than moving him now, getting something in return, and keeping the offense in tact. On the flip side, if we were going to "blow this thing up," next year wouldnt be a bad year to do it.

[irish]

I think the notion that JC could be a borderline pro bowler is very unrealistic. At best he can be a Trent Dilfer type borderline NFL QB. I have a lot of hard core Skins fans as friends and almost to a man (and a couple of women) the only thing they agree on is that JC isnt the answer.

The part I dont see is why Zorn's fate is somehow tied to JC (a QB he didnt draft and IMO didnt want but was forced to take). He had to try to make it work but deep down he knew it just wouldnt fit. I think it would be a huge mistake to fire Zorn because JC didnt pan out. IMO it would cement the reputation of the Skins turning into the Raiders of the east coast with a nut job owner that has no plan for winning.

[Son Of Man]

Originally Posted by 44ever

I agree here 100% Colt IMO if we keep him will be the Brady of the Skins. With that said, I Still want to see what JC can do next season.

We should definately give JC another year to see what he can do, I have faith in his ability and work ethic. However, I don't see him being the vocal leader at QB that winning franchises need. The QB is the General of the team and the great QB's (Manning, Brady, Jurgenson, etc.) are vocal and command their teams respect. JC is just tooooo mellow for my taste and don't make the Doug Williams comparison, DW flexed his man muscles behind closed doors (watch America's Game).

I love Colt's gamesmanship and go after it attitude. In a year or two (with some work and improvement) he will earn the starting role and hold it down for good.

[Son Of Man]

Originally Posted by irish

I think the notion that JC could be a borderline pro bowler is very unrealistic. At best he can be a Trent Dilfer type borderline NFL QB. I have a lot of hard core Skins fans as friends and almost to a man (and a couple of women) the only thing they agree on is that JC isnt the answer.

The part I dont see is why Zorn's fate is somehow tied to JC (a QB he didnt draft and IMO didnt want but was forced to take). He had to try to make it work but deep down he knew it just wouldnt fit. I think it would be a huge mistake to fire Zorn because JC didnt pan out. IMO it would cement the reputation of the Skins turning into the Raiders of the east coast with a nut job owner that has no plan for winning.

That's why Zorn hand picked Brennan.